Confused...

I have been reading for awhile and one thing I am not clear on.
And yes, I have read (and re-read the OC Pocket Cards) and those helped to clear up some other questions I had but not this one...

I have my CPL, can I CC while in a place with a liquor license or do I HAVE to OC?
AND... would this include Meijers, Walmart, Costco and/or Party Stores either just one or a combination of the previously mentioned?
And lastly, does "liquor license" include beer and wine or just (hard) liquor (eg, scotch, whiskey, moonshine, etc)?

Thanks.

You can CC with CPL until the business makes most of its money through alcohol sales. When in doubt just OC. Heck, why would you ever CC?

If they sell alcohol, they have to have a license.

You can CC or OC at meijers or costco for instance, but must OC at a full out bar.

Of course if you had no CPL, you cant even carry on the property of any business that has any license to sell alcohol.

where are my manners, Welcome to the forum!

Welcome to the forum!

As stainless1911 pointed out:

With a CPL:
You can OC or CC in places like Meijer, Kroger, 7-11, Red Robin, Apple Bees, etc...
You can OC in places like bars or taverns (any place that earns a majority of its income from the sale of alcohol by the glass to be consumed on the premise).
If in doubt, open carry.

If they sell alcohol, they must have a license.

There should be some clarification too: a party store's primary income is alcohol. It is not alcohol by the GLASS. Therefore you can CC at a party store. The key wording here is by the glass. Liquor stores sell liquor by the bottle.

don't forget, it's alcohol sold by the glass, to be consumed on the premesis, and 51% of the income MUST come from alcohol sold by the glass to be consumed on the premesis.

Are you sure it's 51%?

I don't know that I interpret the law that way, however IANAL.

say for example you have a bowling alley.. (theoretical numbers here)

you make:

42% Alcohol
16% food
2% shoe rental
40% bowling


You don't have 51%, however their biggest profit is alcohol (by a small margin, but a margin none the less.)

dr todd some time ago found a cite that indicates that only buildings or areas where alcohol is sold according to the lcc are considered "premises" not the parking areas, even if you do not have a cpl.

as the above posters stated, with cpl you can carry cc or oc at places that have a liquor license. As a cpl holder, you are required to oc if they make the majority of income from alcohol by the glass to be consumed on premises. ie: a bar.

here is why: according ot 750.234d prohibits firearm possession on certain premises. however, this section does not apply to cpl holders. You can open carry in all of the places listed in 234d with the exception of a court.

Sec. 234d.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

...(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

Click to expand...

then the concealed carry law, 28.425o lists the places you may not carry concealed.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

.......

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises....

Click to expand...

infinityplusone said:

I have been reading for awhile and one thing I am not clear on.
And yes, I have read (and re-read the OC Pocket Cards) and those helped to clear up some other questions I had but not this one...

Click to expand...

To summarize the above input for you, and give you yes/no answers:

infinityplusone said:

I have my CPL, can I CC while in a place with a liquor license or do I HAVE to OC?

Click to expand...

--If the place's primary source of income (i.e., the income source of greatest amount) is sale of alcohol by the glass -- NO, you cannot CC, but you may OC.
--If the place's primary source of income is NOT sale of alcohol by the glass -- YES, you may CC.

infinityplusone said:

AND... would this include Meijers, Walmart, Costco and/or Party Stores either just one or a combination of the previously mentioned?

Click to expand...

YES, you may CC in those places because their primary source of income is NOT sale of alcohol by the glass.

infinityplusone said:

And lastly, does "liquor license" include beer and wine or just (hard) liquor (eg, scotch, whiskey, moonshine, etc)?

Click to expand...

YES. Any place that sells any form of alcoholic beverage (legally) is near-certainly "liquor licensed".

Thanks!

Thank you all for the explanation and details, they were very helpful.

And thank you for the welcome.
I am still getting use to CC'ing, OC will come in due time.

stainless1911 said:

Of course if you had no CPL, you cant even carry on the property of any business that has any license to sell alcohol.

Click to expand...

wait, just to throw a wrench into the works... what if you are the property and business owner of a business licensed to sell (ie: party store) and you don't have a cpl?

Then you have permission from the owner, (you).

infinityplusone said:

Thank you all for the explanation and details, they were very helpful.

And thank you for the welcome.
I am still getting use to CC'ing, OC will come in due time.

Click to expand...

Welcome to OCDO! When I OC'ed the first time, it felt very strange (just like anything else new). Now, it feels strange NOT to OC.

I once saw a sign at the top of a mountain I climbed: "The difference between tired feet and the enjoying the beautiful view in front of you is generally a condition of the mind."

stainless1911 said:

You can CC with CPL until the business makes most of its money through alcohol sales. When in doubt just OC. Heck, why would you ever CC?

If they sell alcohol, they have to have a license.

You can CC or OC at meijers or costco for instance, but must OC at a full out bar.

Click to expand...

This has nothing to do with how much money they make from alcohol sales. But rather whether you can CC has to do with whether they sell by the glass or just packaged.

Slave said:

don't forget, it's alcohol sold by the glass, to be consumed on the premesis, and 51% of the income MUST come from alcohol sold by the glass to be consumed on the premesis.

Click to expand...

There is no such 51% clause in any MI law. But rather the law says.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises....

Primary source of income and 51% are two very different things.



To sum up.

IF you have a CPL you may CC or OC in any licensed establishment that sells packaged liquor.

IF you have a CPL you must OC in any place that sells by the glass wherein the sale of Liquor by the glass is the primary source of income.

IF you do not have a CPL you may NOT be on the premises of the location that is licensed. (this includes all property - parking lots grass everything)

NOTE while the liquor law specifies premises as the building. 750.234d does not and parking lots as well as all other property would be considered premises. Unfortunately we cannot take the definition from one law and use it in another. So as far as I can tell what Dr. Todd found is interesting but of little use.

Edited to add missing info.

malignity said:

Are you sure it's 51%?

I don't know that I interpret the law that way, however IANAL.

say for example you have a bowling alley.. (theoretical numbers here)

you make:

42% Alcohol
16% food
2% shoe rental
40% bowling


You don't have 51%, however their biggest profit is alcohol (by a small margin, but a margin none the less.)

Click to expand...

Correct...majority means the most, not necessarily 51%.

autosurgeon said:

IF you have a CPL you must OC in any place that sells by the glass.

Click to expand...

You quoted the correct law, then summarized it improperly. With a CPL, you CAN CC at restaurants like Applebees, Logans Steak house, BW3's, ect. because, although they DO sell liquor by the glass, it IS NOT the primary source of income. Food is.

scot623 said:

You quoted the correct law, then summarized it improperly. With a CPL, you CAN CC at restaurants like Applebees, Logans Steak house, BW3's, ect. because, although they DO sell liquor by the glass, it IS NOT the primary source of income. Food is.

Click to expand...

Blast it I know that :banghead::lol:

Bottom line. Michigans laws are needlessly confusing, and this thread could not have a more appropriate title.

autosurgeon said:

This has nothing to do with how much money they make from alcohol sales. But rather whether you can CC has to do with whether they sell by the glass or just packaged.



There is no such 51% clause in any MI law. But rather the law says.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises....

Primary source of income and 51% are two very different things.



To sum up.

IF you have a CPL you may CC or OC in any licensed establishment that sells packaged liquor.

IF you have a CPL you must OC in any place that sells by the glass wherein the sale of Liquor by the glass is the primary source of income.

IF you do not have a CPL you may NOT be on the premises of the location that is licensed. (this includes all property - parking lots grass everything)

NOTE while the liquor law specifies premises as the building. 750.234d does not and parking lots as well as all other property would be considered premises. Unfortunately we cannot take the definition from one law and use it in another. So as far as I can tell what Dr. Todd found is interesting but of little use.

Edited to add missing info.

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure the "premises" issue is a settled fact so to say it is "of limited use" is your opinion, just as my opinion is that it is useful. Generally, you can't take the definition of one law and apply it to another BUT if one law is based upon another, I think it may be possible. There really is no sure way to know. The safest bet would be not to carry anywhere on the property that has a liquor license if you do not have a CPL.

Since the OP does not have where in Michigan he lives listed and he states that he has a CPL, let's pretend someone reading this does not and let me use my county as an example. IF ONE DOES NOT HAVE A CPL: In Kent County, don't carry at some of the hotels, as they have liquor licenses. Forget about golf courses, too... most have liquor licenses. Banquet and conference centers, The Grand Rapids Art Museum, Schuler Books, Frederick Meijer Botanical Gardens, Grand Lady Riverboat Cruise, East Hills Athletic Club all are prohibited places without a CPL. So, even if it looks like a "safe" place, the only way to make sure is to check the DLEG website and see if they have a liquor license...
http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

BTW... "primary" doesn't necessarily mean "majority" as malignity very wisely stated... the term itself is pretty much open to interpretation. So, if one wants to really be safe... it is best not to carry concealed with a CPL in any establishment licensed for consumption on the premises because, depending on what interpretation a LEO or judge wants to apply to your case, any one of us could be breaking the law. Also don't think that by OCing w/ a CPL you are going to be safe either... BTW, has anyone heard anything regarding that case in Lansing??

malignity said:

Are you sure it's 51%?

I don't know that I interpret the law that way, however IANAL.

say for example you have a bowling alley.. (theoretical numbers here)

you make:

42% Alcohol
16% food
2% shoe rental
40% bowling


You don't have 51%, however their biggest profit is alcohol (by a small margin, but a margin none the less.)

Click to expand...

What? The primary source of income in your example is STILL NOT alcohol. It's from several other sources. 16+2+40=58% so the primary source is NOT alcohol. While 51% is not mentioned it's implied. Of all the sources of income for a business, alcohol is either the majority or it isn't. Or am I missing something?