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Officer(s) need to be a better shot

LR Yote 312

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
458
Location
God's Country, Wi
I like dead criminals as much as The Nuge or the next guy.
Dead criminals arent usually a burden on the taxpayer.

I also see the other side of the coin too.

Just because the criminal was shot and lived,doesnt necessarily mean the
cop was a poor marksman.
The officer may have chosen to take a less than lethal shot that was just as
effective to remove the threat.

LR Yote
 

CalicoJack10

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
559
Location
Arbor Vitae
The use of a firearm is supposed to be a last resort. I understand that part, that is why all cops have Tazers now. However, the training that I provide to the officers I teach is free because I have seen that the officers I offer free courses to are on average 60% less effective than the civilian students.

Granted no instructor can effectively simulate "Comat Stress", however that aside, the time that departments spend getting officers ready for potential threats needs to be increased.

With many instructors offering discounted training for LEOs as well as mandatory requirements and staff firearms instructors, the overall cost should be a minimum. I have seen first hand that many departments scramble officers to training that is less imparative for public safety. And all of this is at the end of the training season.
 

Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
I have been complaining for years about the lack of training law enforcement receives. The sad truth is that in a combat situation, the average gun owner is far more accurate and less prone to injuring bystanders than the police.

Although the average gun enthusists may be a better shot on paper, the average gun owner is less prepared to firing under stress than LEO or .mil. The Chai Vang incident is an excellent example.
 

gollbladder13

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Messages
239
Location
No gun zone, Wisconsin, USA
Training doesn't matter in a real SHTF situation...

It doesn't matter if you're the world's greatest shooter or handling a gun for the first time. Shooting paper is shooting paper. In the real world, being able to hit the paper isn't what's going to keep you alive.

Will training help? Sure! But it doesn't magically get the job done.

Here's an example of even a "highly trained" shooter couldn't hit his mark...

http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2011/feb/08/sandy-thalheimer-jeweler-armed-robbery-shot-back/

VIDEO: Jewelry store owner exchanges gunfire with armed robbers in Naples

By Naples Daily News staff report
Updated Wednesday, February 9, 2011

NAPLES — The owner of a defensive gun school in Fort Myers wasn’t about to let armed robbers outside his Naples jewelry store get away without a fight.

So, when Sandy Thalheimer, owner of Thalheimers Jewelers, saw masked men speed off after robbing someone in his jewelry store parking lot Tuesday afternoon, he raced toward their car, rammed it with his truck and within seconds was in the middle of a shootout, taking on more than four men.

“It is the first time I have ever had someone shoot at me and it is the first time I have ever shot back,” said Thalheimer, who has taught hundreds of people defensive shooting tactics at Sandy Thalheimer Defensive Gun School.

Thalheimer had nothing at stake financially. Still, he risked his life to stop the armed men from leaving with the goods he believed they stole from the east coast-based jewelry salesman identified only as “Greg,” who was on a sales call at Thalheimer’s store.

The suspects, however, eluded Thalheimer, making off with an undisclosed amount of jewelry. They managed to elude law enforcement by switching getaway cars twice.

The masked suspects held up the jewelry delivery man about 2:30 p.m. in the parking lot at Thalheimers Jewelers, 3200 U.S. 41 N., according to the Naples Police Department. Police initially said they were looking for two suspects plus one getaway driver. However, Thalheimer said there were four people in the first car and at least two getaway drivers.

Thalheimer said he was leaving the store in his truck to pick something up at 7-Eleven when he became suspicious of masked men speeding in his parking lot.

The store owner took action, ramming the suspects’ black Ford Taurus sedan in the driver’s side with his white pickup truck. All of the air bags in the car deployed.

Thalheimer planned to back away, but his truck was stuck, entangled in their car, he said.

“At that point, I didn’t want to get executed sitting on my gun,” Thalheimer said.

He got out of his truck.

“There was nowhere to run. I had to deal with it,” he said.

He and the suspects, who were also wearing bandanas, exchanged gunfire, Thalheimer said.

Thalheimer fired all five rounds from the pocket pistol he keeps in his truck, he said. The culprits, he said, fired several more rounds, including gunshots that came at him from another getaway car across the street, he said.

Thalheimer said he couldn’t describe the suspects because he was concerned more about shooting the armed men and avoiding being shot.

“When someone is shooting at you, all you know is someone is shooting at you,” he said. “The first time I saw them they had masks on and the next time I saw them they were shooting at me.

“You just react and you’re just doing it … I was looking at the front sights and thinking about the trigger.”

No one was injured as a result of the shots fired, said Naples police Lt. John Barkley at the scene.

However, Thalheimer said he wasn’t sure whether a bullet from his gun may have hit at least one of the suspects.

There was no trace of blood reported at the scene.


The suspects jumped into a red sport utility vehicle, then dumped it a couple of blocks south on Creech Road and got into a gray SUV, Barkley said.

The suspects got away with three black bags of jewelry, including a duffle bag and two smaller black jewelry bags, in a getaway car that may have been driven by a Hispanic woman, he said.

Fred Swetland, owner of Citisleeper, located in the shopping center across Ridge Street from the jewelry store, said he heard the gunshots.

“I heard large caliber shots ... about half dozen of them,” Swetland said. “I ran out. Someone said ‘Don’t go over there!’ I’m ex-military. Hell, I’m going over there.”

“It was a big boy,” he said of the gun, based on the sound of the gunshots.

Upstairs from the jewelry store, attorney Steve Blount, of the Woodward, Pires and Lombardo law firm, said he heard four or five shots then saw two guys running across the street toward an orangish-red SUV that was “tearing down the street real fast.”

They had hooded jackets on, he said. Possibly blue in color, Blount said as he held the leash to his black Lab named Major, who was in the office with him at the time the shots were fired. Blount saw the men run across the parking lot and into a field yielding guns, he said.

“I was supposed to be walking in that field with Major,” Blount said, shaking his head side to side.

As for the gun-toting, jewelry store owner, he was into racing sports cars before he became interested in handgun competition and training.

Thalheimer, a nationally classified master shooter and president of the Naples Swamp Rompers Gun Club, told the Daily News about his two passions in a 2009 interview that also ironically encapsulates Tuesday’s events of shots being blasted and speeding getaway cars.

“Shooting is like racing — the person who can go the fastest with the least amount of mistakes wins,” he said.
 
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davegran

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,563
Location
Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wiscon
"Don't bring a popgun to a gunfight..."

....Here's an example of even a "highly trained" shooter couldn't hit his mark...http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2011/feb/08/sandy-thalheimer-jeweler-armed-robbery-shot-back/
I think it's more of an example of a highly trained shooter in the wrong place with the wrong WEAPON. If he'd had an AR in the gun rack or even a full-size semi-auto pistol with a longer sight radius, it might have turned out differently. "Don't bring a popgun to a gunfight...". Still, he had no business pursuing the alleged robbers; he was in no personal danger until he deputized himself.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
CalicoJack10 said:
...a LEO is 11 times more likely to hit an innocent bystander.
As Auric pointed out, this is in part due to the differences in when a gun is used.

If someone attacks me, I know exactly who it is - no doubt in my mind. I've seen him come at me, and hopefully I will shortly see him lying peacefully spread-eagle on the ground waiting for officers to rescue him, with no blood outside either of our bodies.
(Or he might be oozing & I'll be shaking, but alive.)

When officers come into a scene, they don't know who did what so will cuff everyone 'til it gets sorted out. Or they may shoot the wrong person. There was a news article posted here not too many weeks ago about an officer in plain clothes, with a badge, carrying a rifle onto a scene & being shot to death.

CalicoJack10 said:
I don't know how many times I have heard statements like "Yea, I can shoot, I'm a police officer" when teaching a course.
I've taken to letting my cop friend have the seat that more directly faces the door(s) in our favorite coffee shop. I say it's because he's more paranoid, he claims he's a better shot. That annoys me.

We've never shot together, never compared targets, nothing like that, but he assumes he's the better shot.
He may well be, depending on how much he practices, etc.
But it annoys me that with no proof he claims he's better.

Another thing to consider is that he might be better at accuracy, but I don't try to put all my shots through one hole, or even in a small group. I take a half sheet of paper & put as many separate holes in it as I can, as quickly as I can. If that were a person's torso, I've done enough damage to stop them.

LR Yote said:
Just because the criminal was shot and lived,doesnt necessarily mean the cop was a poor marksman.
The officer may have chosen to take a less than lethal shot that was just as effective to remove the threat.
OK, it's "ask a LEO" time.
Are cops trained (or allowed) to shoot under different standards than we are?
I mean, I've always heard/read that I can't shoot unless in danger of death or serious bodily harm. No warning shots, no shooting to injure. Aim for the torso or the head because that's the fastest way to stop the threat.
 

GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
Sarcasm alert.... Why do ooficers need to be a better shot...When ya got 6 COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Inappropriate even in sarcastic mode all shooting at the same target eventually 7 or 8 of the 96 shots fired from pistols, Shot guns & AR-15's will hit their mark..the rest will pass through walls & Windows then find a place in some sleeping little girls forehead or ricochet off a car door & kill an innocent bystander eating a Chalupa with extra sour cream at Taco bell..

All they will get is maybe 72 hours desk duty while the "good shoot" get's investigated & their Dept will get sued......noting more...Police officers are not responsible for their bullets like we are...
 
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CalicoJack10

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
559
Location
Arbor Vitae
OK, it's "ask a LEO" time.
Are cops trained (or allowed) to shoot under different standards than we are?
I mean, I've always heard/read that I can't shoot unless in danger of death or serious bodily harm. No warning shots, no shooting to injure. Aim for the torso or the head because that's the fastest way to stop the threat.

It is my understanding as I have been told by LEO supervisors reguarding the officers I have trained that they have the same use of force requirements as the civilian population. In theory.............
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
There's only one self-defense statute in Wisconsin, and it applies to LEO and non-LEO's alike. LEO's receive shoot/don't shoot scenario training. Most non-LEO's probably never get such training. Police often face ambiguous situations, and the decision to shoot or not to shoot quickly under stress is very tough. Hesitation can get one killed and overreaction can kill an innocent person. Not fun to be placed in that situation.

If I can speculate, I'd say there's a certain number of innocent lives taken by police simply because of the "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" principle. Police want to go home with all their limbs intact and with no more holes in them than they had at the start of the shift. They've made up their minds in advance that if they make a mistake it will be a mistake that still has them breathing at the end of the day. In their minds, the possibility of a deadly encounter is not as remote as it is for most people, so if face with a violent situation they don't have to mull it over in the heads-- the decision has been made long before.

The shoot/don't shoot training is an eye-opener. Even in a training scenario, I've found the adrenaline pumping each time.
 

GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
As Auric pointed out, this is in part due to the differences in when a gun is used.

If someone attacks me, I know exactly who it is - no doubt in my mind. I've seen him come at me, and hopefully I will shortly see him lying peacefully spread-eagle on the ground waiting for officers to rescue him, with no blood outside either of our bodies.
(Or he might be oozing & I'll be shaking, but alive.)

When officers come into a scene, they don't know who did what so will cuff everyone 'til it gets sorted out. Or they may shoot the wrong person. There was a news article posted here not too many weeks ago about an officer in plain clothes, with a badge, carrying a rifle onto a scene & being shot to death.


I've taken to letting my cop friend have the seat that more directly faces the door(s) in our favorite coffee shop. I say it's because he's more paranoid, he claims he's a better shot. That annoys me.

We've never shot together, never compared targets, nothing like that, but he assumes he's the better shot.
He may well be, depending on how much he practices, etc.
But it annoys me that with no proof he claims he's better.

Another thing to consider is that he might be better at accuracy, but I don't try to put all my shots through one hole, or even in a small group. I take a half sheet of paper & put as many separate holes in it as I can, as quickly as I can. If that were a person's torso, I've done enough damage to stop them.


OK, it's "ask a LEO" time.
Are cops trained (or allowed) to shoot under different standards than we are?
I mean, I've always heard/read that I can't shoot unless in danger of death or serious bodily harm. No warning shots, no shooting to injure. Aim for the torso or the head because that's the fastest way to stop the threat.

With all the excuses you are making for the Police one would think your either Married to a Police officer or Really good buddies with one....either way..Brown nosing with the Police won't score you many points on this forum..

--Moderator Statement--
No personal attacks, please.
 

GLOCK21GB

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 22, 2009
Messages
4,347
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA

oliverclotheshoff

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2010
Messages
845
Location
mauston wi
i was just recently thru camden nj looking at a peice of used equipment for work and man that place is scary the used eqiupment broker (who lives in philly) i was dealing with said their police force is very small almost none at all they were on the verge of shutting down all police and bringing in the nat guard to clean it up, he also told me that camden has the highest murder rate per capita, true or not it doesnt matter i know for a fact i will never be in that area
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
i was just recently thru camden nj looking at a peice of used equipment for work and man that place is scary the used eqiupment broker (who lives in philly) i was dealing with said their police force is very small almost none at all they were on the verge of shutting down all police and bringing in the nat guard to clean it up, he also told me that camden has the highest murder rate per capita, true or not it doesnt matter i know for a fact i will never be in that area
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/01/mass_police_layoffs_being_in_c.html
 
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