Ezerharden
Regular Member
I see your point, however as much as I wish your idea were the normal way, it sadly isn't yet. I hope I live long enough to see MI become the next Con Carry state.
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Don't be afraid to show your true colors about protecting OC
- Thread starter DanM
- Start date
I see your point, however as much as I wish your idea were the normal way, it sadly isn't yet. I hope I live long enough to see MI become the next Con Carry state.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
Firstly, my intention was not to tell DanM (his post was quoted not Raggs) anything, I was using the logic he put forth. After his response, it clarified things and made more sense to me. To me it is a non issue, and no harm meant or received.
As to your proposed hypothetical bill, I am glad we are talking hypothetical because it is too much of a stretch for the reality of MI at the moment, however, I would likely consider that gaining a great deal with sacrificing one minor thing. Moot point for me though as I don't go to sports stadiums as it is
I will grant those as valid points, but also rare points. This is the first real change to come along for carry laws since Shall Issue 10 years ago. And if you are referring to HB5225 with respect to registration it is RUMORED that there indeed was a compromise, background checks for private sales. This has not been officially announced yet so I am waiting to see what comes of it.
quote failure on my part, my post was directed towards DanM, not you. sorry for the confusion.
DanM- would love to hear your answer on the hypothetical bill I posted.
Last edited:
Ezerharden
Regular Member
No worries DF
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
FreeInAZ
Regular Member
Me too. Sadly the folks in the MI legislature are way behind the curve on their opinions of what the public can be trusted with. They only need to look at AZ to see what really happens when constitutional carry comes to large metro areas like Phoenix. Blood does not flow in the streets and gun crime is less than in the Detroit metro area. EVERYONE (law abiding citizens of the USA 21 and older)can carry cc or oc or both
on or about their persons, in a car, in a Kroger/Fry's or Wal-mart. No cpl/ccw needed.
Last edited:
Raggs
Regular Member
Kinda funny, but then again I am not a real OC advocate.
DanM
Regular Member
detroit_fan said:
I'm happy to treat any hypothetical as a real case as long as the premises upon which it is based are at least plausible. In the real world, an event is both preceded by activity and followed by activity. In other words, there is a "before", "during", and "after" that may be relevant and important to discuss.
Such is the case here. What is your premise for the "before" activity which led to the Governor having on his desk such an almost-utopian gun rights bill from the legislators, with the curious exception of the carve-out for OC in a sports stadium? Once you set this "before" premise, I'll be happy to start from there as we proceed through this exercise.
Shadow Bear
Michigan Moderator
Lighten up, newbie; you're just digging yourself in deeper.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
How did I know you wouldn't give me a straight answer. But I'll play along because I want to hear a "yes" or "no" on this.
The bill came about becasue the governor is a "Ron Paul" type supporter of the 2A, he supports no restrictions. But the NFL, NHL, NBA, NCAA, MLB have all passed rules that if openly carried guns are allowed in their stadiums they will consider moving the teams to a state that doesn't allow it, becasue they don't think it's safe. In order to not risk losing all the revenue from these teams and becasue of public pressure, the one compromise was to exclude these places from OC.
So I ask again, do you sign that bill or veto it?
Raggs
Regular Member
Seems that the only way to answer you yes or no would be to contradict himself and become a non-OC-advocate like me.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
Which is why he didn't answer it and tried to dance around it. He wants to try to make it appear as those of us who are willing to compromise are somehow not real supporters, and that there can never be a compromise worth taking, but that is simply not true. By posing this question to him, I hoped to demonstrate how unrealistic that stance is.
Unless, he truly is a man of his word and would say to veto that bill, because after all it DOES roll back OC in exchange for advancements on other methods of carry.
I'm anxiously looking forward to hearing what he would do with this bill.
Last edited:
mastiff69
Regular Member
Shadowbear be nice !
Shadowbear all due respect but i was on the ground floor, One of Four in the beginning,
1 Venator
2 Mr. Mastiff
3 Mrs Mastiff
4 Michigander
These were the first Group of open carriers.
We put our neck out their to expand the noramalize this type of carry again.
Most of the posters i see on here were nowhere to be found til later.
I am not saying that they are anyless important than the few that started this group, WE are all important..........
PS Boilfrog welcome to OC, you are welcome to OC with us anytime you want From Battle Creek Mi.
Griffin, We ( wife & I)were on the ground floor when the group was (first formed in 2007) MOC was formed much later & some of us did not like the idea & ever since then it has been back stabbing to get power etc.... all we wanted was to enlighten the masses, & too further expand.
I have never held a post nor wanted to do so. It has never been about ME always about educating the public, read my past post all the way back to nov 2007
Most if not all except Mr. Jeffs are gone from the origanal group of about 20 appox, before it became MOC
I was a MOC member but let it expire becouse of the problems .Many of us have.
I only post when needed, not so i can make my number large, to look important as some have done.
Shadowbear all due respect but i was on the ground floor, One of Four in the beginning,
1 Venator
2 Mr. Mastiff
3 Mrs Mastiff
4 Michigander
These were the first Group of open carriers.
We put our neck out their to expand the noramalize this type of carry again.
Most of the posters i see on here were nowhere to be found til later.
I am not saying that they are anyless important than the few that started this group, WE are all important..........
PS Boilfrog welcome to OC, you are welcome to OC with us anytime you want From Battle Creek Mi.
Griffin, We ( wife & I)were on the ground floor when the group was (first formed in 2007) MOC was formed much later & some of us did not like the idea & ever since then it has been back stabbing to get power etc.... all we wanted was to enlighten the masses, & too further expand.
I have never held a post nor wanted to do so. It has never been about ME always about educating the public, read my past post all the way back to nov 2007
Most if not all except Mr. Jeffs are gone from the origanal group of about 20 appox, before it became MOC
I was a MOC member but let it expire becouse of the problems .Many of us have.
I only post when needed, not so i can make my number large, to look important as some have done.
Last edited:
griffin
Regular Member
Founding members of MOC or just people who OCed?
You sure seem ready to praise the original MOC board and members but hell-bent on trashing the current board and members. According to this, you were not a charter member, are not currently a member, and don't even participate. Seven posts in over 2-1/2 years.
http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php?action=profile;u=81
DanM
Regular Member
detroit_fan said:
detroit_fan said:
You didn't provide a complete hypothetical as I outlined above. I believe I was civil in expressing that to you and indicating my willingness to discuss the hypothetical. I certainly didn't express my opinion that your hypothetical needs fleshing out in an insulting way. Yet you come back at me in an insulting manner.
I have been civil to you. Should you be expected to be civil toward me?
I am willing to have this discussion with you, in which you will discover my answer to the Governor, but I will not continue having my civility toward you met with insult from you. Agreed?
Ezerharden
Regular Member
Mastiff69 Get Real
I may not be one of "your First Group" however I have been OC'ing on my own for years before coming here. Please do not expect anyone to believe you were the first and only 4 in the state to start OC'ing.
I may not be one of "your First Group" however I have been OC'ing on my own for years before coming here. Please do not expect anyone to believe you were the first and only 4 in the state to start OC'ing.
detroit_fan
Regular Member
fair enough, all civility restored between us.
i outlined a bill, and the background of that bill, and it's pro's/con's, so would you tell the governor to sign that bill or not? I think it's a fair question.
ghostrider
Regular Member
That may well be true, but that small group was dirrectly responsible for getting the Michigan open carry movement off the ground, and more towards the mainstream acceptance we now have.
Lots of people OC before then, they just brought it more to the forefront.
Ezerharden
Regular Member
Dont recall seeing any of you down here in Monroe County, I was here, some issues at one point, none now. How did you make it more mainstream in my neck of the woods? While I appreciate that you 4 may have been the basis for MOC, I am not going to simply bow down and confer the title of Founders of Open Carry in MI. There were many more I would imagine, some of whom may not ever be here yet.
DanM
Regular Member
I appreciate that.
detroit_fan said:
It's absolutely a fair question, and I'm glad you acknowledged that, just as in real life, it is also fair to include the relevant things I would do before and after. To that end, you presented a premise on what was happening in the few weeks or months before:
detroit_fan said:
Ok, let's start! Here I am, a gun-rights advocate, in the few weeks or months before this bill will go to the Governor. Obviously, in this hypothetical, you've made me very politically active and connected in Lansing . . . after all, the Governor himself is going to take his cue from me on this one.
Like any citizen, and probably to a far greater extent given my current political capital in your hypothetical, I and my fellow gun-rights advocates have the ability to talk to politicians about their support for this bill that will go to the Governor. I and my fellow gun-rights advocates may, if we wish, also explore their support for possible alternatives to this bill, should it be vetoed by the Governor. Just as politician do in real life, these hypothetical politicians are free to think about and voice whether or not they support any of a variety of legislation "packages" their constituents ask them about.
The bill will be going to the Governor, but I'm not prevented from doing anything I've mentioned so far, surely you would agree? Upon your confirmation, I will proceed.
Shadow Bear
Michigan Moderator
I was referring to boiledfrogs- newbie coming out of nowhere, and bragging about how 'My stance on the support of OC cannot be questioned.'; pretty cheeky, if you ask me. I have great admiration for those who took the heat in the early days, and pave the way for newcomers like boiledfrogs- he has a lot of chutzpah to try to place himself among the pioneers.