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Refusing to hand over firearm at a traffic stop - MO

Have Gun - Will Carry

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Oct 29, 2010
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290
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Kenosha County, Wisconsin
In NC touching a firearm can be GATTOP,

GATTOP? What's that, some NC slang? More importantly, does it apply to OCers in Missouri?

or in any state could be considered assault. I do believe suicide is illegal in most states.

But if the cop ordered him to remove the firearm, then it cannot be considered assault unless the cop is a worthless liar. He also didn't order the OCer to commit suicide, so I fail to see what part of touching his firearm - after being told to - is an "unlawful act". I never said it was a wise thing to do - just not unlawful.

It was dumb for the officer to demand it, it was intelligent for the OP to refuse. If the officer wanted that firearm he could get it himself. Most OCers know that touching a firearm in the presence of a police officer is not to bright. And that IS the point.

No, the point I made was to ask you where he was ordered to perform an unlawful act. He wasn't. Just admit it.

But if you have doubts, touch your firearm in a traffic stop, get back to us if you can...

What part of my post wasn't clear to you? Here, maybe this will help:

I'm not saying it's a smart thing to do, or that it won't result in new holes suddenly appearing in someone - I'd just like to know where that act is considered "unlawful".
 

Have Gun - Will Carry

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Hey, if your idea of a good time is getting shot, go for it.

Go for what? Wow, they weren't kidding about your lack of reading comprehension in the other thread... Try reading what I actually said, instead of what you mistakenly think I said.

Great job at failing to answer a single question I posed. I knew you wouldn't admit being wrong. Done wasting my time with this. Eye95-ing on...
 

WalkingWolf

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Go for what? Wow, they weren't kidding about your lack of reading comprehension in the other thread... Try reading what I actually said, instead of what you mistakenly think I said.

Great job at failing to answer a single question I posed. I knew you wouldn't admit being wrong. Done wasting my time with this. Eye95-ing on...

What I am reading is someone who wants to fight on the internet, that is it. The OP made a wise move, and if a officer tells you do drive into a semi tractor head on it is still illegal whether he tells you or not. Touching a firearm IS brandishing or assault in most states, if the officer tells you to IT MIGHT BE A EXCEPTION, but it is still against the law to fondle your gun in public. Now if you want to continue acting like a child, continue. The OP made a wise decision, that apparently YOU are arguing against. There is no missing that.
 

LMTD

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Read number three on the opening post again.

Perhaps you should do so, when I do it seems the OP is asking specifically about the legality (not stupidity) of the request as well as the made up penalty.

Some of the responses claim the request was illegal and he should sue, I do not agree that he has ant sort of case irrelevant of whether I believe it to be stupid or not, it was not illegal and the penalty was completely fabricated.

Your thought that simply because it was stupid that it is against the law is flawed by the simple fact that the law in no way is required to make sense and rarely takes anyone's safety into consideration. It is much more construed to create an effective revenue source and provide for increased government control, nothing more and nothing less, it never makes sense.
 

WalkingWolf

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Perhaps you should do so, when I do it seems the OP is asking specifically about the legality (not stupidity) of the request as well as the made up penalty.

Some of the responses claim the request was illegal and he should sue, I do not agree that he has ant sort of case irrelevant of whether I believe it to be stupid or not, it was not illegal and the penalty was completely fabricated.

Your thought that simply because it was stupid that it is against the law is flawed by the simple fact that the law in no way is required to make sense and rarely takes anyone's safety into consideration. It is much more construed to create an effective revenue source and provide for increased government control, nothing more and nothing less, it never makes sense.

Reckless conduct/stupid conduct is against the law in most states. Reaching for a gun in the presence of anybody at the least is brandishing, at worst it could be considered assault, or reckless conduct. Whether told to do a act that by common sense and law is illegal has no bearing on the law. Same as shooting in self defense, it always is illegal to shoot another person, self defense is just a exception. Many state concealed laws are written in this fashion, it is illegal but allowed by permit.

Besides the fact that if you do get shot doing something STUPID by a police officer, it is almost guaranteed you will be charged with a crime. The OP made a wise choice which should not be confused by gobbly gook that might lead him to make a mistake the next time. Or anybody else that might read such stupidity.
 

stealthyeliminator

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The traffic stop was RAS, the weapon was secondary. Under the guise of officer safety and the firearm being in plain sight as well as being informed of its presence the officer had the full authority of law under TERRY to have taken possession of the weapon for the duration of the stop. The OP has described it as in plain sight and within reach which are indeed areas the officer has the authority to take control of it.

As far as revoking your CCW, the officer is an idiot and he has no such authority what so ever, he can't even keep the card.

Folks can argue it all day long but it will not change. The sight of a firearm is not RAS of a crime but the sight of a firearm during a legal stop, officer safety is going to win every time if it is within reach of the detainee.

Hmm. I don't think this post is very hard to understand. As I was reading through the previous posts, in the back of my mind, I was wondering if this was true, as no one seemed to acknowledge any of this.. I think it's actually pretty important.

If disarming the detainee during the traffic stop is indeed legal, and you refuse, they may not be able to revoke your license, but, I'd be a little worried about what they could do, right then and there. 1. you have a loaded firearm 2. you're refusing to comply with legally applied instruction 3. the refusal to comply results in your continued possession of a lethal weapon while you're being legally detained and while the cop (perhaps) feels threatened. Cops don't like situations like that. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone tazed, sprayed, or drawn down on and drug out of the car through the window to be kneed in the back and cuffed tightly.

Refusing to touch the firearm is not what happened. Refusing to disarm, meaning, refusing to allow the firearm out of your possession is what happened. IMO, that police officer exercised some self control.
 

LMTD

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Besides the fact that if you do get shot doing something STUPID by a police officer, it is almost guaranteed you will be charged with a crime. The OP made a wise choice which should not be confused by gobbly gook that might lead him to make a mistake the next time. Or anybody else that might read such stupidity.

You seem to remain under the illusion that stupidity is against the law, it is not.

Your effort to pretend that touching the firearm would have violated the law is null, in pure argument stance, without any doubt, since the officer was indeed within the law to take possession of the firearm, the citizen failed to follow a lawful order which is also against the law.

Again, you can argue all the bs you like but the facts will remain and the op's question has not changed. A firearm in plain sight and within reach of a suspect during a legal detainment may be taken control of by an officer without recourse against that officer for doing so. While I agree with your thoughts that the method the officer attempted to do so was a poor method, however; that does not make it illegal just because you want it to be.

Brandishing is a catch all in many states and remains undefined in MO, however it falls under a more common and opinion based phrase in many of the laws as "handle a firearm in a "rude or angry manner" for the assault charge.

While most officers would state they would indeed not want the citizen to touch the firearm, your thought that the police officer asked the citizen to hand him the gun and place it on top of the car so he could draw his blaster and shoot him is some serious paranoia on your part and poor procedures on the officers part, neither of which fall under a category of criminal behavior or a civil action as the thread has implied.
 

Maverick9

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Brandishing is a catch all in many states and remains undefined in MO..
Cite?
While most officers would state they would indeed not want the citizen to touch the firearm...

How do you know what most officers would state? Are you a LEO?

The person stopped should have requested a supervisor when asked to touch his firearm. Had another officer come up on his 11:00 and seen him reaching for a gun, he'd have been justified in shooting.

Ordering a LAC to put an unholstered (or any) firearm on the roof, and then returning to the squad is utterly stupid. You now have an uncontrolled weapon out in public view, up for grabs.

To me, this constitutes a reckless disregard for safety on the part of the officer and the OP should talk to counsel, at the least, requesting a response (is this the common training?) and hopefully getting a change in policy.
 

LMTD

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Did you miss the "undefined" part? That means you can't "cite" brandishing within the MO revised statutes as they never defined it in the revised statutes. When something is not in there it is not possible to cite it.

None of the rest of your post changes the legal question the OP asked or his legal position afterwards, like the other guy, you seem to have the mistaken ideal that if it is stupid it is against the law and whether you like it or not, it remains quite legal to be stupid, only once it becomes negligence does it become a legal matter here.

In MO we do not make things legal we make them illegal so anything that is not listed as illegal is presumed to be indeed legal.

How about you cite the revised statute that indicates the LEO did ANYTHING illegal if you are going to continue to try and argue your point instead of trying to pretend I or anyone else said it was a good idea.
 

VinnAY

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I completely disagree with notifying an officer that you're carrying. I've only been stopped (speeding) one-time in having my permit for 4+ years. I practiced the standard conduct policy for all stops: hands on wheel in plain view, yes sir/no sir. hand over license/insurance when asked and state location before moving.

THAT'S IT. If asked directly about a weapon, I would answer truthfully but by announcing that you have a firearm you're breaking rule #1 in dealing with Johnny Law: Don't talk to a cop.

In that one time stop, the female deputy didn't ask, I didn't tell, and we both miraculously survived and went on or way(s).
 
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Richieg150

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Reaching for a gun in the presence of anybody at the least is brandishing, at worst it could be considered assault, or reckless conduct.


bran·dish
[bran-dish] Show IPA

verb (used with object)
1.
to shake or wave, as a weapon; flourish: Brandishing his sword, he rode into battle.

noun
2.
a flourish or waving, as of a weapon

World English Dictionary

brandish (ˈbrændɪʃ)

— vb
1. to wave or flourish (a weapon) in a triumphant, threatening, or ostentatious way


IMO, reaching for your firearm, by definition is not brandishing a firearm. I have always believed that brandishing a firearm is pointing or waving it in a threatening manner.............
 

Mo

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Thanks.

On some other forums I'm mostly getting read the riot act and told that the officer does have the right to secure the weapon for the stop.

That's because the other forums are full of mainline Republican bootlickers. The average neocon wouldn't know liberty if it bit him in the butt.
 

davidmcbeth

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IMO, reaching for your firearm, by definition is not brandishing a firearm. I have always believed that brandishing a firearm is pointing or waving it in a threatening manner.............

You would be wrong ... one can brandish a weapon while its still in its holster ...
 

SavageOne

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Let me state it very simply for non-Missouri members. You cannot be charged with brandishing a firearm , at the state level, because the word "brandish" does not appear anywhere in the Revised Missouri Statutes. You may find it in some local jurisdictions, but at the state level it does not exist. What a person would be charged with is "exhibiting a weapon capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner".

Chapter 571 Section 571.30 subsection 1 subdivision (4) clearly states as much.

(4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or

That is not to say a person may not have to fight over the definitions of "exhibit", "angry", or "threatening". None of those are defined in the definitions section of 571. I am unaware if the have been defined in litigation.
 

bigb360

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Independence
I completely disagree with notifying an officer that you're carrying. I've only been stopped (speeding) one-time in having my permit for 4+ years. I practiced the standard conduct policy for all stops: hands on wheel in plain view, yes sir/no sir. hand over license/insurance when asked and state location before moving.

THAT'S IT. If asked directly about a weapon, I would answer truthfully but by announcing that you have a firearm you're breaking rule #1 in dealing with Johnny Law: Don't talk to a cop.

In that one time stop, the female deputy didn't ask, I didn't tell, and we both miraculously survived and went on or way(s).

I wasn't really clear in the post that I didn't reveal I was armed till he asked. I was typing fast.
 

Richieg150

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You would be wrong ... one can brandish a weapon while its still in its holster ...

By definition: from Webster's and World English Dictionary, to brandish....I guess it may be possible to wave it holstered in an angry or threatening manner.....I do understand that the english language is not unlike the laws of the land, people's perception is their reality. I may be wrong, have been wrong, and will be wrong again. I was simply showing the definition of the word brandish.....its not the same thing as just "exhibiting a weapon capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner". But that to is my opinion and understanding of the word brandish, as opposed to exhibiting..
 
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kylemoul

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Jan 1, 2011
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st louis
Hi all. This is a somewhat blurry issue, as it involves my ccw license as well, but open carry in vehicle. I've not gotten a clear answer on it yet.

I was stopped tonight by an officer here in MO. We're not a must inform state, as you know, but I treat everywhere I go as a must inform just as a general principle. The officer approached the car and I handed him my license and ccw permit and told him I was a conceal carrier and had my weapon on me. It was even in a console that was visible to him and I pointed it out.

He then asked for the weapon to place on top of the vehicle, to which I told him I'd rather not due to 1) not wanting to be disarmed, 2) not wanting to grab the gun and move it around while it's loaded, and 3) not wanting to go for a gun with a cop standing right next to me.

He took my licenses and came back and issued me a warning (phweh) but then told me the next time an officer asks for the gun, to give it or they'll call me in and revoke my ccw.

I'm almost sure that's not the case, given that Missouri is a shall issue state with no duty to inform. Add to that the 4th amendment AND the 2nd amendment, and I don't see how he could do that.

Does anyone here know?

I'm sure all this would of been avoided just not not informing him, but that is your personal choice. Just an example of what could be/what can happen and luckily the LEO didn't take it a step further and did who knows what. Some LEO's don't care, some will violate you whatever way they can.
 
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