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Badges

Kingfish

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
1,276
Location
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Please cite the law that says it is illegal. It is not my fault that other citizens are ignorant of the truth or that they can't tell it is one of those carry badges and not an actual police badge.
You said you were doing it to "mislead some of the citizens who would otherwise place a MWAG call which leads to the cops unconstitutionally detaining me." intent to impersonate LE and thus a crime.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
this is utter *********. have you read the RCW for impersonation?

here's a hint. you can dress in an entire police uniform and walk down the street, and that is NOT impersonating an officer in WA state.

it requires an act (the mens rea here) with intent to create the impression one is acting within that official capacity.

walk down the street in full police uniform? legal

do the same and point to somebody and say "sir, stop. i need to talk you ". that would be a violation

don't get me wrong. it is COMPLETELY stupid for a nonLEO to wear a badge next to their openly carried firearms

none of us who are LEOs carry our badge openly next to our firearms when we OC, and that would be violation of dept. policy.

we've already got a metric bazillion posts about people walking around OC'ing in WA with very rarely any sort of problem

but you do not want to muddy the water and create the impression that you are a cop, if you aren't.

PALO, I am glad we have an officer like you that feels this way and you are absolutely correct about mens rea but the truth of the matter is that there is enough cops and prosecutors and juries and judges who are not as informed as you or who totally ignore mens rea.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
You said you were doing it to "mislead some of the citizens who would otherwise place a MWAG call which leads to the cops unconstitutionally detaining me." intent to impersonate LE and thus a crime.

I am not intending to mislead. I am merely acknowledging the fact that some citizens will be unaware of different types of badges and thus would think it's a cop badge (and thus if they knew it wasn't they would most likely feel misled). Call it taking advantage of another's ignorance to avoid confrontation if that makes you feel better about the term. Also please cite the actual law in regards to "impersonating" an officer so that we can see the actual verbage of the law and just what does and does not qualify as "impersonating."

Hell I've heard of PIs/bounty hunters actually flashing a badge and acting in a similar manner as LEO when looking for info and yet that isn't "impersonating an officer" even though it is obvious that the flashing of a badge and acting in an intimidating manner in order to get people to "think" that they are a cop and comply. So I'm still trying to figure out how simply wearing a badge is illegal.
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
I am not intending to mislead. I am merely acknowledging the fact that some citizens will be unaware of different types of badges and thus would think it's a cop badge (and thus if they knew it wasn't they would most likely feel misled). Call it taking advantage of another's ignorance to avoid confrontation if that makes you feel better about the term. Also please cite the actual law in regards to "impersonating" an officer so that we can see the actual verbage of the law and just what does and does not qualify as "impersonating."

Hell I've heard of PIs/bounty hunters actually flashing a badge and acting in a similar manner as LEO when looking for info and yet that isn't "impersonating an officer" even though it is obvious that the flashing of a badge and acting in an intimidating manner in order to get people to "think" that they are a cop and comply. So I'm still trying to figure out how simply wearing a badge is illegal.

You said 'I'm gonna get a badge because I know people will confuse it for a police officers badge'...... If that doesn't spell intent I don't know what does.......

You need to understand CAUSAL and INCIDENTAL relationships.

I shot a steel target, and it ricocheted.... That would be incidental... an unintended consequence.

I shot a steel target, at an angle that I know would be more likely to cause a ricochet..... that would be causal....and an intended consequence...

To sit there and say 'I'll get a badge because someone will think I'm a cop and not call the police', is purely causal.. You're intentionally trying to mislead the public... You're not a security guard in uniform and someone else mistook you for a cop, (incidental), you're getting a badge to go with your gun so people will think you're a cop (causual)

Legal or not, it's ********. no matter how you wanna try and justify it.... You already admitted you were gonna get it because someone might think you're a cop and not call the police....
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
You said 'I'm gonna get a badge because I know people will confuse it for a police officers badge'...... If that doesn't spell intent I don't know what does.......

You need to understand CAUSAL and INCIDENTAL relationships.

I shot a steel target, and it ricocheted.... That would be incidental... an unintended consequence.

I shot a steel target, at an angle that I know would be more likely to cause a ricochet..... that would be causal....and an intended consequence...

To sit there and say 'I'll get a badge because someone will think I'm a cop and not call the police', is purely causal.. You're intentionally trying to mislead the public... You're not a security guard in uniform and someone else mistook you for a cop, (incidental), you're getting a badge to go with your gun so people will think you're a cop (causual)

Legal or not, it's ********. no matter how you wanna try and justify it.... You already admitted you were gonna get it because someone might think you're a cop and not call the police....

"...The second is that hopefully it will mislead some of the citizens who would otherwise place a MWAG ..."

Is what I had said. I did not say that I would impersonate an officer. I have also clarified that by "mislead" I am simply taking advantage of other people's ignorance to avoid confrontation. I am NOT trying to act in any official manner. Since none of you were even willing to try and tell me what law simply having a badge in the hopes of being left alone would break I went and looked up both my state law and the laws of Washington (since this is the Washington section). For Washington I would be breaking no law as it requires ACTING in a manner. Per RCW 9A.60.040:

(1) A person is guilty of criminal impersonation in the first degree if the person:

(a) Assumes a false identity and does an act in his or her assumed character with intent to defraud another or for any other unlawful purpose; or

(b) Pretends to be a representative of some person or organization or a public servant and does an act in his or her pretended capacity with intent to defraud another or for any other unlawful purpose.

(2) Criminal impersonation in the first degree is a class C felony.

I won't bother posting OK code since it isn't applicable to this state, but it is similar. Now the use of a badge to carry one's permit is questionable, but is not illegal as it does not qualify as "impersonating an officer" because there is no actual act as required by law.
 

gogodawgs

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
5,669
Location
Federal Way, Washington, USA
Aknazer....

Again, why not just go about your daily business as you do now, albeit with your jacket off? Make OC normal, dress as you currently do, but with the freedom of taking off an extra unneeded article of clothing. Be confident in your demeanor, be courteous, be polite, be professional. Smile at people as you pass by, hold the door open at the store.... surely a happy, polite, well dressed person will discourage a MWAG call far more than any inanimate object possibly could.

I know, because I practice exactly what I have written. 2 1/2 years and no MWAG calls for me.

And if you get a MWAG call, so what? Oblige by the law (silly OK OC law) and show your permit. Smile, be courteous to the officer, do not surrender any additional rights and help educate the officer and the department. Encourage the LEO to come here to OCDO and learn from states like WA and VA where the practice is more common and without great consternation on the half of law enforcement.

Embrace the change, be prepared for it and educate the public. And then work on the next phase of OC in OK, permit-less carry.
 
Last edited:

PALO

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
729
Location
Kent
"I would say dressing in a uniform would qualify, at least give PC for an arrest, even if not for a conviction..."

i would say you are wrong.

feel free to find me a case where somebody was arrested MERELY for wearing a police uniform with no acts as required under the RCW

i'll stand by on that, likely for eternity.

it would be a false arrest. period. full stop

they have these pesky things called "elements of the crime"

fwiw, i have arrested 3 people under this statute. 2 were for impersonating members of the military and asking for money (one was also drunk and we did him for DUI too. lol. moron)

1 was for impersonating a cop. he wasn't wearing a uniform, but he was using a blue light, and standing outside his car with a fake radar gun and telling people to slow down.

the blue light was the clincher since...

blue lights are restricted to LEO's only, and members of the public know that only cops use blue lights. so, since the guy was using a blue light, he was creating the impression he was a cop, and combined with the radar gun and his act of telling people to slow down he was both creating the impression he was a police officer AND committing an act of apparent authoritah while doing so.

lots of people dress in police uniforms. plenty of strippers do, for example

again, you can walk down the street in full uniform and it is not a violation of the RCW. an arrest for same would be false.

you would have to be very careful not to do an ACT thought that would be violative. if a person in police uniform yells out "stop", for example, i think that would qualify, based while IN UNIFORM it would meet the rest of the statute.

"stop police" would be better PC. but a police officer in uniform yelling "stop" would be enough, since the uniform is saying "police"
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Aknazer....

Again, why not just go about your daily business as you do now, albeit with your jacket off? Make OC normal, dress as you currently do, but with the freedom of taking off an extra unneeded article of clothing. Be confident in your demeanor, be courteous, be polite, be professional. Smile at people as you pass by, hold the door open at the store.... surely a happy, polite, well dressed person will discourage a MWAG call far more than any inanimate object possibly could.

I know, because I practice exactly what I have written. 2 1/2 years and no MWAG calls for me.

And if you get a MWAG call, so what? Oblige by the law (silly OK OC law) and show your permit. Smile, be courteous to the officer, do not surrender any additional rights and help educate the officer and the department. Encourage the LEO to come here to OCDO and learn from states like WA and VA where the practice is more common and without great consternation on the half of law enforcement.

Embrace the change, be prepared for it and educate the public. And then work on the next phase of OC in OK, permit-less carry.

There's a reason why I said I was only thinking about getting a badge. I would only get it if I was being regularly hassled by law enforcement. My plan is to just go about my business OCing and w/o the badge, but should I be constantly hassled for OCing only then would I consider getting the badge to hold my HWL.
 

1911er

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2009
Messages
833
Location
Port Orchard Wa. /Granite Oklahoma
Why A badge in Oklahoma

"...The second is that hopefully it will mislead some of the citizens who would otherwise place a MWAG ..."

Is what I had said. I did not say that I would impersonate an officer. I have also clarified that by "mislead" I am simply taking advantage of other people's ignorance to avoid confrontation. I am NOT trying to act in any official manner. Since none of you were even willing to try and tell me what law simply having a badge in the hopes of being left alone would break I went and looked up both my state law and the laws of Washington (since this is the Washington section). For Washington I would be breaking no law as it requires ACTING in a manner. Per RCW 9A.60.040:



I won't bother posting OK code since it isn't applicable to this state, but it is similar. Now the use of a badge to carry one's permit is questionable, but is not illegal as it does not qualify as "impersonating an officer" because there is no actual act as required by law.

Why have A badge in Oklahoma for open carry is not legal there and concealed carry isn't concealed if you notify people that you carry, That could be qualified as intimidation.
 

decklin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
758
Location
Pacific, WA
Aknazer....

Again, why not just go about your daily business as you do now, albeit with your jacket off? Make OC normal, dress as you currently do, but with the freedom of taking off an extra unneeded article of clothing. Be confident in your demeanor, be courteous, be polite, be professional. Smile at people as you pass by, hold the door open at the store.... surely a happy, polite, well dressed person will discourage a MWAG call far more than any inanimate object possibly could.

I know, because I practice exactly what I have written. 2 1/2 years and no MWAG calls for me.

And if you get a MWAG call, so what? Oblige by the law (silly OK OC law) and show your permit. Smile, be courteous to the officer, do not surrender any additional rights and help educate the officer and the department. Encourage the LEO to come here to OCDO and learn from states like WA and VA where the practice is more common and without great consternation on the half of law enforcement.

Embrace the change, be prepared for it and educate the public. And then work on the next phase of OC in OK, permit-less carry.

+1
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
"...The second is that hopefully it will mislead some of the citizens who would otherwise place a MWAG ..."


Is what I had said. I did not say that I would impersonate an officer. I have also clarified that by "mislead" I am simply taking advantage of other people's ignorance to avoid confrontation. I am NOT trying to act in any official manner. Since none of you were even willing to try and tell me what law simply having a badge in the hopes of being left alone would break I went and looked up both my state law and the laws of Washington (since this is the Washington section). For Washington I would be breaking no law as it requires ACTING in a manner. Per RCW 9A.60.040:



I won't bother posting OK code since it isn't applicable to this state, but it is similar. Now the use of a badge to carry one's permit is questionable, but is not illegal as it does not qualify as "impersonating an officer" because there is no actual act as required by law.


You completely missed second degree...

RCW 9A.60.045
Criminal impersonation in the second degree.


(1) A person is guilty of criminal impersonation in the second degree if the person:

(a)(i) Claims to be a law enforcement officer or creates an impression that he or she is a law enforcement officer; and

(ii) Under circumstances not amounting to criminal impersonation in the first degree, does an act with intent to convey the impression that he or she is acting in an official capacity and a reasonable person would believe the person is a law enforcement officer; or

(b) Falsely assumes the identity of a veteran or active duty member of the armed forces of the United States with intent to defraud for the purpose of personal gain or to facilitate any unlawful activity.

(2) Criminal impersonation in the second degree is a gross misdemeanor

You're intentionally carrying a badge to infer that you're carrying a firearm (an act) in an official capacity, which you're intentionally hoping the person would believe you're a law enforcement officer.....

So yes, it very well could apply.
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
You completely missed second degree...



You're intentionally carrying a badge to infer that you're carrying a firearm (an act) in an official capacity, which you're intentionally hoping the person would believe you're a law enforcement officer.....

So yes, it very well could apply.

With that interpretation then it would be illegal to wear anything like a Police Uniform as a Halloween Costume.

Let's not forget the "Birthday Strippers" that show up wearing a police uniform and threaten to arrest the "birthday boy or girl" for being bad and then proceed to be "very bad" themselves.
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
[QUOTE--deleted content--[/QUOTE]


Well a few things come into play..

I'm exempt from a few portions of the law because of my license.......

I am NOT exempt from 'distracted driving'.......

You cannot have a TV display forward of the driver, but it does not receive television, so I'm good.....



RCW 46.61.667
Using a wireless communications device while driving.


(1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person operating a moving motor vehicle while holding a wireless communications device to his or her ear is guilty of a traffic infraction.

(snip)

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not restrict the operation of an amateur radio station by a person who holds a valid amateur radio operator license issued by the federal communications commission.
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
With that interpretation then it would be illegal to wear anything like a Police Uniform as a Halloween Costume.

Let's not forget the "Birthday Strippers" that show up wearing a police uniform and threaten to arrest the "birthday boy or girl" for being bad and then proceed to be "very bad" themselves.

and you sir, are completely missing the second portion of the law...


A reasonable person is not going to believe that they're an officer, nor are they intending for their actions to be perceived as an officer.....


Just be lucky it's not VA, where you can be arrested for impersonation for stopping to help at an accident scene, or trying to direct traffic around your busted car...
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Why have A badge in Oklahoma for open carry is not legal there and concealed carry isn't concealed if you notify people that you carry, That could be qualified as intimidation.

Start from the beginning of my posts, I already covered this back on page 1.
 
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