OK. It's gonna read a bit funny since I'll be joining several posts into one.
OK, my second encounter: It was not as scary this time. I was more confident. I knew the law and knew it was on my side. I was recording the event from the get. (I start my recorder when I leave the house. Come to think of it, I forgot it today and went home to get it. Glad I did.) The officers were polite and indicated that they had no intention to arrest me. They were just, once again, wrong on the law. I will be emailing Lt. Col. Thompson again tomorrow. However, I have heard that the new chief is anti-gun, so I don't know where this is going.
Anyway, it started in Ross, where a man came up to me and asked me if I was a police officer. I said no. He asked if I had a permit. I don't think I answered him, just looked puzzled. He told me I can't carry it openly like that, that I have to conceal it. I told him that that is not what the law says. He walked away. He went over to a store worker and left him visibly upset. I don't know what happened there, but he clearly did not get satisfaction. I happened by him later and handed him a card. He told me, "I don't want that!" I said, "OK, sir," and walked away. Anyone overhearing our conversations, as short as they were, should have come away thinking he was hyper and I was polite and nonplussed. I think he called the cops.
I went to World Market and to Pier One and to Target. No one seemed to take notice, as it should be. But, someone else called the police. Three officers were waiting for me when I left and a fourth came out shortly after I did.
______________________
I saw the officers and did not change direction. One of them subtly motioned me over, so I walked up to them, offered my hand to each one and greeted them. They might not have thought so (actually, I'm sure they didn't), but four officers three in front, one behind, motioning me over to them constitutes as stop. I did not feel as though I was free to leave. That meant they needed RAS, which they did not have. At one point in time, they even told me I was free to go. Why would they say this unless they thought I thought I was being detained. If I reasonably believed that I was being detained, according to the courts, I was.
During the course of the encounter, several member of the public were *gasp* alarmed by the presence of the police, not by me! The officers took a move-along-nothing-to-see-here attitude. So I handed everyone who asked a card for the site and told them the whole story would be posted here tonight. I also gave each officer a card. Most of them were receptive. Their supervisor took the card, but seem disinterested and indicated she probably wouldn't check it out. One of the officers seemed very interested. I think he'll at least read, even if he doesn't join.
Anyway, I am reviewing the recording now. I will post details as I encounter them.
_____________________________
Got to 2:27 on the tape. Talking with the officers about RAS and when they can demand name, address, and explanation. One officer is telling me that AL law says we must carry photo ID. I asked him for a cite. He couldn't give me one. I explained that I have been all through the law and have only found where an officer with RAS may demand name, address, and an explanation of our actions. So, MPD does not train its officers well on RAS or Terry. They allow myths like a requirement for photo ID to be perpetuated.
They asked nicely, specifically not under color of law, so I gave them my name and address. No explanation of my actions was forthcoming.
At 2:34 on the tape, the fourth officer made his presence known. I handed him a card, as I had the other three. He asked me if I had a permit. I told him that I didn't have it on me. He stated that, and I am quoting here, "Alarm supersedes your right to carry.”
Wow. The emotions of others outweigh our right to protect ourselves? No, officer. You are as wrong as wrong gets.
At 2:37, "If you don't have a pistol permit on you, you can go to jail." Wrong again.
I pleaded with them to check the law. They told me, "You're free to go," (another indication that they believed that I was being detained up until that point. So, the official detention lasted 10 minutes. I reminded the officers that they were free to go also and that I was free to stay. We all stayed.
At 2:40, I asked them a few times to check with Lt. Col. Thompson. They offered to have their supervisor come out. (She was cited as the source for the "Alarm supersedes your right to carry" statement. I agreed and they called her.
One of the officers asked me to state the law on "public alarm." I told him it was the disorderly conduct law and that it was a crime to intentionally or recklessly cause public alarm and that exercising the right with a properly holstered firearm could not do that.
At 2:42, an officer explains that Target does not want me on his property. We end up in a discussion where he insists that he can trespass me, and I explain that only the owner or his representative can trespass me, and that, if he does, I will comply with his wishes. Much later the supervisor tried again to tell me that Target was going to trespass me. I had the same discussion with her. She whipped out her code, read up on trespass, and agreed with me. She called the manager over. He told her that he called corporate, and they said he couldn't trespass me unless there was an incident in the store. A bit embarrassing for the officers.
I will be contacting corporate and praising their manager.
At 2:47, a lady inquires what is going on she is alarmed by all the armed officers! They tell her that nothing is going on, just talking. I hand her a card and tell her that she can read all about on this website.
At 3:00, I get the names of two of the officers, Robert Petipat and Cpl. Shelley Watts.
We get into an OC v. CC discussion. I relate the story from the Kennesaw Waffle House. They raised the possibility of BGs targeting OCers. I pointed out that OCers being taken out of their guns being snatched just don't happen.
I got the name of a third officer. It slipped by. I'll post it later. He was VERY interested in open carry. He was unsure of the law when challenged by another officer. I believe he will be stopping by and reading a lot. I hope he posts. Of the four officers, he impressed me as the most professional.
At 3:08, the supervisor arrived. Sgt. Smith. A lot of platitudes followed. She claimed to have "reasonable articulation that [I am] causing alarm in a public place."
At 3:16, the sergeant asked about my prior military and/or LEO experience. I told her that I served 20 years in the AF, part of it as a LEO, a security policeman. She went on to talk about carrying in hostile areas and wearing vests and going on possibly dangerous calls, etc. She also wondered why I would do "this." I explained that I am hoping to get the public used to guns again.
She wondered why I would risk getting trespassed. I explained that I didn't mind being told I couldn't shop somewhere, that I'd simply call corporate and post what happened on here and OCDO. She then called the manager, Vincent Wooden (sp?) to handle the formality of getting me trespassed. He wouldn't do it. "I'm unable to do that. I called corporate..." She seemed disappointed. I thanked Vincent profusely and said that he would be praised on the site.
Vincent asked if I was part of the group who met at the Starbuck's in Prattville.
The sergeant said she could pat me down. She asked me to get on YouTube and look up officer-involved shooting. Her job is dangerous. She is out there protecting me. She doesn't get the difference between "responding" and "stopping."
3:26, encounter ends.
So, it wasn't two hours. Just one. It seemed like two hours. I started the recording very close to 11:30, when I left the house, so, if you subtract one-half an hour from the times, you get the clock time.
I am going to upload the recording to my computer, edit out my private information, eliminate dead spots, and upload it to the Internet so everyone can get the full story with all the details. The recording quality is surprisingly good.
Then tomorrow, I'll email Lt. Col. Thompson. Monday morning, I'll start the documents request process...again. I still don't intend to sue, but pretty soon, if MPD does not get its act together, I will. It'll be a heckuva case with these well-documented multiple cases.
__________________________
OK, the names of the officers:
Officer Robert Petipas
Cpl. Shelley Watts
Officer Ryan Gibson
Sgt. Smith
Officer Ryan Gibson was the most professional and the most curious.
I did not get the fourth officer's name. Sgt. Smith was the supervisor who came by later.
