Almost had to pull the trigger tonight...

MKEgal · Sep 24, 2012

Phoenix David said:
"Honey if I draw my gun, you get behind me and call 911 on your cell phone"

Except that if you're convinced your life is in danger, wouldn't you want your loved one(s) out of the way?
"If I draw my pistol, you run sideways from me as far as you can, or until you find something to hide behind, then call 911."
That way, if someone comes at you or throws lead at you, your wife/child/parent is out of the way of harm.

BB62 said:
My suggestion is that you should have called the police.

Esanders2008 said:
By calling the police, I would have to break my rule of "Never talk to the police (unless you HAVE to)".

You just felt your life was in danger. That's a reasonable time to call police.
Maybe it'd only take one more report for that dog to be classified as dangerous, the owner ticketed, & the dog destroyed.
The other reason to have a police report is so you don't seem like you do now - someone working on a creative writing project, hoping to get reactions.
There have been lots of posts similar to yours, generally by new people, with the same general flavor & tone.

Personally, there have been (IIRC) 2 things that have happened to me which I've reported here which did not have a police report &/or news article to back them up.

Esanders2008 said:
I live in a highly populated area

and yet

Esanders2008 said:
we were out late at night... and there were no other people around.

Esanders2008 said:
with practiced speed, drew my Glock 19 and aimed it at the advancing dog

This seriously sounds like a creative writing exercise.

Esanders2008 said:
the dog sat in the middle of the street. I reholstered, figuring the threat was over

Have you heard of the Tueller drill?

Esanders2008 said:
I was so stressed out over the whole situation I actually had to sit curb-side for several moments

This would have been a dandy time for your wife to call & report the attack.

kylemoul · Sep 24, 2012

BB62 said:
My suggestion is that you should have called the police. I suggest this any time one apparently threatens or actually draws their gun.

I would rather be the first person to call the police than the one explaining/justifying my actions after someone else has reported some other version of events.

Yes Esanders, you totally should of called the police. They would of helped just in time when you are all bleeding out on the ground or have superficial wounds. How dare you try to protect yourself in a life-threatening situation.

Is bb62 serious?

Phoenix David · Sep 24, 2012

MKEgal said:
Except that if you're convinced your life is in danger, wouldn't you want your loved one(s) out of the way?
"If I draw my pistol, you run sideways from me as far as you can, or until you find something to hide behind, then call 911."
That way, if someone comes at you or throws lead at you, your wife/child/parent is out of the way of harm.

My point was to have a plan ready in advance.

BB62 · Sep 24, 2012

kylemoul said:
Yes Esanders, you totally should of called the police. They would of helped just in time when you are all bleeding out on the ground or have superficial wounds. How dare you try to protect yourself in a life-threatening situation.

Is bb62 serious?

"Should of"? You mean "Should have".

And, yes, I'm serious - but it's clear you didn't read carefully or you don't understand - my meaning was to call the police and report the incident, not call and wait for LE to come on scene.

Esanders2008 · Sep 24, 2012

Wow.. I take a quick nap and now there are more posts than I can respond to.

1. As far as this sounding like a creative writing exercise, I did that on purpose. It is so I can organize my thoughts into a logical string, rather than type out lists like I usually do. While I have "dressed up" the story in a sense with flowing prose, I assure you the story is true.

2. I didn't want to call the police for two reasons: I was in Chesapeake, and they were not friendly when my dad reported his guns being stolen. Anyone who wants more details about that can look at my post in the VA sub-forum. TL;DR, they tend to "collect" guns. The second reason is that there wasn't, IMO, an incident to report. This particular dog wasn't snarling or foaming at the mouth, it simply charged at me and my dog as we walked by. The ONLY reason I even drew my gun is because I was scared of a similar incident occurring to me like the Pit Bull attack. Once I realized the threat was over, I immediately reholstered and went about my business.

3. I really do appreciate the info on what my wife should have done vs what she did. We are going to have that talk tonight, because it brings up some very good points that I had not thought of.

4. I have never heard of the Tueller drill, but I will look it up, and if you care to post a synopsis here, I'd love to hear it.
*EDIT* I knew about this, but didn't know what it was called. That is one reason I drew my pistol, because the dog was well within that limit of 21 ft */EDIT*
5. As far as posting on here to get a reaction: Isn't that why any of us start threads, or do we post them and hope no one reads them.

Thanks to everyone and let's keep the discussion rolling! :lol:

Firearms Iinstuctor · Sep 25, 2012

I do a lot of running ,biking and the job before I retired put me into contact with lots of dogs.

99% of them can be be delt with good loud firm comand talk. I normally yell, back, go home .
A lot of times it takes several commands to make them stop. The rest I have had to use spray on that has worked.

I would not hesitate to shoot a dog if they were going to follow through on their attack, dog bites are not fun. I never had to pull the trigger on one but it has been very close a couple of times.

Most dogs are trained to listen to loud firm commands. For those who don't other means have to do. Spray, walking stick, work well, firearm if one has do.

Morbidph8 · Sep 25, 2012

Jay Jacobs said:
I've chased away a vicious growling dog by simply spreading my arms to appear larger and becoming the aggressor.

Personally, the dog in question would have to be either chasing down a small child or have already drawn blood before I'd feel confident in shooting it.

1) I don't care to get sued or arrested

2) An armed citizen shooting someone's "puppy" sure looks bad on the evening news

+1
I have lived in some boon dock places with wild/loose dogs.. Getting bigger and meaner, and loader. Worked every time.. Dogs are pack animals, be the Alpha

To the OP: I'm sorry you were attacked by a pitbull type dog.. As a owner of a very well behaved American Pit Bull Terrier. I wanna say sorry about all the messed up people that ruin these good dogs.. APBT's have been for some time the all American dog.. Because they are so popular a lot of them are abused and mistreated. Resulting in attacks and such... I get so upset over attacks from pitbull type dogs, because the morons out their will get my fav breed banned..

I'm glad you didn't have to shoot that dog. By the way it listened when you gave him a command shows it is somebodies pet/family. Glad everything went ok for everyone..

Citizen · Sep 25, 2012

Esanders2008 said:
SNIP So I turned around and saw this dog running at me, barking. I got really scared and, with practiced speed, drew my Glock 19 and aimed it at the advancing dog. My wife saw fit to tell me to stop. (Apparently she didn't think the dog was scary. I maintain that *she* wasn't the one sent to a hospital with puncture wounds to the forearm from a dog bite).

There is no offense meant in the coming message.

I suspect those few sentences tell the whole story.

What is obviously missing from your account is any distinction between a barking dog and an attacking dog. A dog running at you barking is not necessarily attacking. You want to look for the distinctions--raised hackles, viciousness in the bark, rapidity of the bark, etc.

I've had plenty of dogs barking and running at me. A few were actually greetings. Most were just attempts at intimidation, the dog trying to scare me. Only one or two were actual attacks that had to be dealt with by resort to violence.

I'm guessing your wife, not being the target, and not having the recent biting bearing down on her, was able to distinguish that this particular dog was not actually attacking.

Believe it or not, you can tell the difference. Just watch dogs and their behaviors. Once you get the hang of it, you can tell the difference.

skidmark · Sep 25, 2012

Let's try to do this in order -

You survived. +1
You have accepted a lot of the suggestions and constructive criticism instead of defending everything you did - +1
You are going to have "the talk" with your wife - score TBA once we read the AAR but probably +2

So, if my math skills have not completely deteriorated, you are well in the plus column.

Now, some asdditional suggestions -
a - try to find a range where you can do dynamic shooting (shooting on the move, shooting at moving targets, etc.) If you need a referral, PM me for the names of two good trainers.
b - try either stream or foam pepper spray - they have much less blow-back even in strong winds. But understand that commercial human-strength pepper spray can, in the right concentration and in the right parts of the anatomy, be fatal for dogs, cats, squirrels, racoons, and possums. (None of the stuff is any good against zombies.)
c - whatever type/style of pepper spray you get, PRACTICE with it. Some manufacturers make an inert training canister, but if you use up a can of the real stuff learning how to best deploy it, consideer that money well spent.
d - 21 feet is way too short a distance to draw your inner perimeter line. The Teuller Drill shows you how far away an opponent can be and still beat you. You want to draw that line somewhere that you can assess, decide, draw, aim, put rounds downstream, and have them effectively stop the threat before it skids to a stop at your feet. (Now, just because the threat is across the street does not mean you should immediately start sending rounds downstream; merely being "shooter ready" may be enough at that distance.)
e - after you get some training in dynamic shooting, do dry-fire drills at home. Who knows if "muscle memory" really exists, but practicing perfectly will go a long way towards performing well. (Laser trainers have come way down in price - it would be money well spent and gives you thousands of shots for about the price of 4 boxes of real ammo.)

stay safe.

Esanders2008 · Sep 25, 2012

skidmark said:
Let's try to do this in order -

You survived. +1
You have accepted a lot of the suggestions and constructive criticism instead of defending everything you did - +1
You are going to have "the talk" with your wife - score TBA once we read the AAR but probably +2

So, if my math skills have not completely deteriorated, you are well in the plus column.

Now, some asdditional suggestions -
a - try to find a range where you can do dynamic shooting (shooting on the move, shooting at moving targets, etc.) If you need a referral, PM me for the names of two good trainers.
b - try either stream or foam pepper spray - they have much less blow-back even in strong winds. But understand that commercial human-strength pepper spray can, in the right concentration and in the right parts of the anatomy, be fatal for dogs, cats, squirrels, racoons, and possums. (None of the stuff is any good against zombies.)
c - whatever type/style of pepper spray you get, PRACTICE with it. Some manufacturers make an inert training canister, but if you use up a can of the real stuff learning how to best deploy it, consideer that money well spent.
d - 21 feet is way too short a distance to draw your inner perimeter line. The Teuller Drill shows you how far away an opponent can be and still beat you. You want to draw that line somewhere that you can assess, decide, draw, aim, put rounds downstream, and have them effectively stop the threat before it skids to a stop at your feet. (Now, just because the threat is across the street does not mean you should immediately start sending rounds downstream; merely being "shooter ready" may be enough at that distance.)
e - after you get some training in dynamic shooting, do dry-fire drills at home. Who knows if "muscle memory" really exists, but practicing perfectly will go a long way towards performing well. (Laser trainers have come way down in price - it would be money well spent and gives you thousands of shots for about the price of 4 boxes of real ammo.)

stay safe.

Yay for being in the + :banana:
I will look into some of that foam stuff that you mentioned. I also think I might take a defensive shooting course where they talk about things like the Teuller Drill. I remember some of my military training, but it was very specifically tailored for guard duty, and they would rather us beat someone with a baton than shoot them.
At what distance would drawing your weapon be justifiable? I don't want to get spooked by someone acting weird while I'm using an ATM late at night, draw my weapon, then get in trouble for brandishing. :uhoh:
Muscle memory does exist. At least for me. I am a Violist, and through many hours practicing hard pieces, I can nail them without the sheet music.
I know I PM'd you about the laser trainers, but perhaps you would like to post about them here so others can benefit.

Thanks

skidmark · Sep 26, 2012

Esanders2008 said:
Yay for being in the + :banana:
I will look into some of that foam stuff that you mentioned. I also think I might take a defensive shooting course where they talk about things like the Teuller Drill.

No, do not think about it. Do it! Most folks walk around thinking that prior military service or watching cowboy/private eye/police movies is all the training they will ever need. There is no need to go get trained up as some Super-Ninja gun-fu master, but some basic training is in order if only to give you an idea of what to practice and how to practice it.

I remember some of my military training, but it was very specifically tailored for guard duty, and they would rather us beat someone with a baton than shoot them.
At what distance would drawing your weapon be justifiable? I don't want to get spooked by someone acting weird while I'm using an ATM late at night, draw my weapon, then get in trouble for brandishing. :uhoh:

At that distance when you reasonably apprehend imminent death or serious bodily injury if you do not act RFN. Depending on the circumstances that could be anywhere from >< to <------------------------------>.

You are not supposed to draw your handgun because you got "spooked by someone acting wierd" - while you are using the ATM, walking the dog, or doing anything else anywhere else. See the sentence immediately above. Keep your eyes open for when USER announces his next seminar on self defense and get yourself a seat right up front.

Muscle memory does exist. At least for me. I am a Violist, and through many hours practicing hard pieces, I can nail them without the sheet music.

So you already know how to get to Carneige Hall. Same applies to proper, effective, efficient gun handling/shooting.

I know I PM'd you about the laser trainers, but perhaps you would like to post about them here so others can benefit.

Thanks

Let them google it for themselves. Or they can ask you.

I want to read the AAR on "the talk".

stay safe.

Esanders2008 · Sep 26, 2012

skidmark said:
snip

i want to read the aar on "the talk".

Stay safe.

aar?

Citizen · Sep 26, 2012

Esanders2008 said:
aar?

After action report.

Or, a pirate's intimidating utterance.

Esanders2008 · Sep 26, 2012

Citizen said:
After action report.

Or, a pirate's intimidating utterance.

+1 for making me lol

Esanders2008 · Sep 26, 2012

Ok so here's the AAR:

We discussed it, and have decided that if I draw my weapon, she in going to run and get behind cover (I also explained the difference cover and concealment), and call 911. She is in agreement. It is also worth noting that she wants to get her CHP as soon as we have the money, so we will be doing classes together when they become available and fit our schedules and budget.

skidmark · Sep 26, 2012

Esanders2008 said:
Ok so here's the AAR:

We discussed it, and have decided that if I draw my weapon, she in going to run and get behind cover (I also explained the difference cover and concealment), and call 911

This needs to be practiced even before you go to any training. Just admit to yourselves that you will look funny, but remember that it is supposed to save your lives. Saying "We have a plan" is a whole lot different from practicing putting the plan into action.

BTW - does she know what to say to the 9-1-1 operator once they answer the phone?

She is in agreement. It is also worth noting that she wants to get her CHP as soon as we have the money, so we will be doing classes together when they become available and fit our schedules and budget.

How have you prioritized scheduling and funding? (This is a question you answer for yourselves - there is no one correct answer
but there are a few that fit into the "best answer" category. Start calling around NOW so you know what you have to do and how soon you can do it.)

stay safe.

Blkbear · Sep 29, 2012

Esanders2008 said:
Ok so here's the AAR:

We discussed it, and have decided that if I draw my weapon, she in going to run and get behind cover (I also explained the difference cover and concealment), and call 911. She is in agreement. It is also worth noting that she wants to get her CHP as soon as we have the money, so we will be doing classes together when they become available and fit our schedules and budget.

Good deal +1s all around for getting her involved, having a plan and taking classes together.

Jamesm760 · Apr 15, 2013

I dont think I would ever shoot a dog, I have owned pit-bulls for all my life (a good owner) So im not scared of that breed or any large dog breed.

The only bad experience I had with a pit bull, (I was OCing at the time) I was walking to my community park, pit-bull came running out out no where barking at me... I usually hold my ground and start doing my heavymetal/screamo vocals and they don't know how to act, and run away. BUT, this time the dog kept coming at me... So from my own experience when rough playing with my dogs, (was wearing a hoodie) The dog launched at my arm, I retrieved my arm from the hoodie sleeve, dog was tuggin on my empty sleeve, he let go of the sleeve, launched at my face, while in mid air I grabed the dog by his neck skin and slammed him to the ground (didnt mean to do it hard, just fast) and held him down, and was dialing 911 when some one that ended up being the owner came out of a house and got the dog, said "sorry" and left. =/

That was a fun day. =)
When I got home my pit-bulls smelled the other dog and asked me where I went and who i was with... jealous dogs -.-

eye95 · Apr 15, 2013

You don't have to be scared of a breed to respect its ability to do damage enough to be willing to shoot it.

If a big dog attacks me, I know that it can kill me and that I don't have the physical wherewithal to stop it without using a weapon. If I can get to my gun, the dog will be shot--repeatedly, until it stops the attack. Period.

Jamesm760 · Apr 16, 2013

eye95 said:
You don't have to be scared of a breed to respect its ability to do damage enough to be willing to shoot it.

If a big dog attacks me, I know that it can kill me and that I don't have the physical wherewithal to stop it without using a weapon. If I can get to my gun, the dog will be shot--repeatedly, until it stops the attack. Period.

AAAAh crap. I didn't mean to sound like a badass =/ I guess I should have picked another word instead of "scared". Main point I was trying to make is that I personally, Will not shoot a dog, under any circumstances.

But I completely understand if someone needs to do so if they can't handle the situation without using deadly force.

Almost had to pull the trigger tonight...

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