Unlicensed OC within 1,000ft of a school?

Samopal · Apr 3, 2013

If you live in a state that allows OC without a license, say MI for example, is it lawful to OC within 1,000ft of a school? I've heard many people say federal law prohibits it.

I can't find any solid answers regarding this, so maybe you guys could help.

I'm asking because I live in a nice little subdivision with a school about 300ft from my door. I don't have a CPL - is it illegal for me to OC around my neighborhood while I'm out for a walk?

eye95 · Apr 3, 2013

Federal law clearly prohibits carry without a license (with some very specific exceptions) within 1000 feet of a school. No exception is made for States that allow carry without a license.

That particular infringement is one of a few that are the only reasons I am getting my CHL. I don't want to be a test case. We have been looking for a volunteer to test the constitutionality of that law. Would you like to give it a shot?

Samopal · Apr 3, 2013

eye95 said:
Federal law clearly prohibits carry without a license (with some very specific exceptions) within 1000 feet of a school. No exception is made for States that allow carry without a license.

That particular infringement is one of a few that are the only reasons I am getting my CHL. I don't want to be a test case. We have been looking for a volunteer to test the constitutionality of that law. Would you like to give it a shot?

No I wouldn't, but thanks for the offer.

Just as a thought: I have a License to Purchase a Pistol right here next to me with my pistol's info on it. In MI, you need this license to buy a handgun, and according to MI law any handgun legally owned (ie. through a purchase license or CPL) can be carried openly. Could this be seen as a license to possess and carry said pistol?

Also could someone point me to the actual law that prohibits firearms within 1,000ft? All I can find is the now defunct Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990.

eye95 · Apr 3, 2013

I hesitate to comment on MI law. I'll leave that to folks from MI.

Samopal · Apr 3, 2013

eye95 said:
I hesitate to comment on MI law. I'll leave that to folks from MI.

Well it isn't really unique to MI, it was just an example. I just want to know what federal law defines as a "license".

eye95 · Apr 3, 2013

Samopal said:
Well it isn't really unique to MI, it was just an example. I just want to know what federal law defines as a "license".

The only requirement I recall about the license is that only licenses issued after a State-required background check permit carry in a "GFSZ."

Samopal · Apr 3, 2013

eye95 said:
The only requirement I recall about the license is that only licenses issued after a State-required background check permit carry in a "GFSZ."

That makes sense. If that's the case an MI purchase license should be fine, not that I'm going to go test the feds on it.

Samopal · Apr 3, 2013

Well it seems I just had to search a little harder...

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

I am most certainly licensed by the state to possess a firearm and had to get a background check to do so.

eye95 · Apr 3, 2013

Get people from MI to double-check your interpretation. Does a license to "purchase" license you to "possess"? I can't speak about the situation in MI.

MAC702 · Apr 3, 2013

Technically, if a federal agent (or the authorized local authorities) wanted to enforce this unconstitutional law, they could argue that a "permit" is not a "license" in some states. Some states don't have any provision for this "license" and in other states, their "license" is worded in such a way that it, too, may not be a proper exemption.

Fortunately, in the states I frequent, we completely ignore this unconstitutional, unenforced "law."

Many of us OC near schools with no license throughout NV, AZ, and UT.

WalkingWolf · Apr 3, 2013

Samopal said:
Well it isn't really unique to MI, it was just an example. I just want to know what federal law defines as a "license".

Not just a license, but a "license to do so". Very few states issue a license that is a license to carry a firearm within a GFSZ. Colorado is one of the states that do make it clear. NC the law specifically points to federal restrictions are applied to CHP holders. But GFSZA is a federal law, and to be used by local authorities it usually is part of another offense, or has been so far.

The recent SCOTUS ruling on Arizona immigration laws would indicate that local and state authorities do not have power to enforce federal laws. Plus GFSZA has no force on private property, and that leaves out a lot in many communities. Many communities the roads and sidewalks do not belong to government but the property owners, GFSZA has no force of law in these communities.

The law also only is valid for firearms that have been involved in interstate commerce, and does not include antique firearms. Our GA has finally filed a law that would make GFSZA toothless in NC with a modern firearm manufactured in the state of NC. Such as a Para Ordinance firearm. Unless your state has state laws outlawing a antique firearm within a GFSZ, a 1858 Remington with a spare cylinder would be a fine choice for self defense. The solid steel frame of modern steel can be loaded with a 200 gn soft lead bullet with 25 to 30 gn of 3F for respectable performance. I have heard that Pyrodex gives a tad better performance. I can change cylinders in 15 seconds. About double of a speed loader, but still not bad. Or you can do like I do and carry two revolvers.

trailblazer2003 · Apr 5, 2013

Samopal said:
No I wouldn't, but thanks for the offer.

Also could someone point me to the actual law that prohibits firearms within 1,000ft? All I can find is the now defunct Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990.

The 1990 law was struck down due to violating the commerce clause of the constitution. In response Congress passed the same law with minor wording changes relating to the firearm having moved in or otherwise affected interstate commerce.

http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

This is only the federal law. Many states also added a similar state law concerning gun free school zones., so do your homework first.

njkennelly · Apr 5, 2013

Chiming in with a question...

So if The state that I am currently in (NV) has reciprocity with the state from which my CHCL is from (AR), am I considered to fit the requirement for this exception:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law

MAC702 · Apr 6, 2013

njkennelly said:
So if The state that I am currently in (NV) has reciprocity with the state from which my CHCL is from (AR), am I considered to fit the requirement for this exception:...

Most of the opinions I have seen say technically no. But since ANY enforcement of this law will see a courtroom, arguing reciprocity is going to be only part of the many things that will favor the defense.

We pretend this law does not exist in the state of NV anyway.

MKEgal · Apr 6, 2013

Samopal said:
could someone point me to the actual law that prohibits firearms within 1,000ft?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

18USC921
(25) The term “school zone” means
. . . (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
. . . (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.
(26) The term “school” means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.

18USC922(q)(2)(A)
It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(q)(2)(b) details the exceptions

ETA: that's obviously only the federal one. I'm on my way to bed & don't have the patience or brain power to look up the MI law right now.

SpringerXDacp · Apr 6, 2013

Samopal said:
If you live in a state that allows OC without a license, say MI for example, is it lawful to OC within 1,000ft of a school? I've heard many people say federal law prohibits it.

I can't find any solid answers regarding this, so maybe you guys could help.

I'm asking because I live in a nice little subdivision with a school about 300ft from my door. I don't have a CPL - is it illegal for me to OC around my neighborhood while I'm out for a walk?

No. When you obtained a License To Purchase (LTP, MCL 28.422), to purchase a handgun, the verification by a law enforcement authority to determine if you qualify for the license (LTP) is what exempts you from the FGFSZ's.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

License To Purchase:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(rc...leg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-28-422

28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; forging application; implementation during business hours.
Sec. 2.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.

eye95 · Apr 6, 2013

Informative answer.

That is why someone from the OP's State needed to chime in. The license to purchase is also the license to possess. "License to purchase" is a lousy name for a carry license!

SouthernBoy · Apr 6, 2013

Samopal said:
No I wouldn't, but thanks for the offer.

Just as a thought: I have a License to Purchase a Pistol right here next to me with my pistol's info on it. In MI, you need this license to buy a handgun, and according to MI law any handgun legally owned (ie. through a purchase license or CPL) can be carried openly. Could this be seen as a license to possess and carry said pistol?[/]

Also could someone point me to the actual law that prohibits firearms within 1,000ft? All I can find is the now defunct Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990.

It clearly is a license to possess as you have written that it is required to obtain a handgun. And that is all that is needed for the federal law.

As for the federal statute, U.S. Codes 18,921 and 18,922 should answer your question.

bc.cruiser · Apr 6, 2013

Be sure to note the requirement of Paragraph (q)(2)(B)(iii): unloaded, and in a locked container. Your purchase license covers your possession of the gun in the GFSZ, but if a Fed wants to be an extreme irritant, expect to be cited under this provision. Your state may, and should, have wording that negates that. Mine doesn't.

eye95 · Apr 6, 2013

bc.cruiser said:
Be sure to note the requirement of Paragraph (q)(2)(B)(iii): unloaded, and in a locked container. Your purchase license covers your possession of the gun in the GFSZ, but if a Fed wants to be an extreme irritant, expect to be cited under this provision. Your state may, and should, have wording that negates that. Mine doesn't.

That paragraph is one of many alternatives conjoined with an "or." It is not the only way to lawfully carry in a GFSZ. It is just one option.

Unlicensed OC within 1,000ft of a school?

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