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Horrible First Encounter Open Carrying.

armyman_83

New member
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
5
Location
Alabama
Hello All,

I posted this story on the Alabama Open Carry website and wanted to post it here, to spread the attention I think it needs, to remind us to remain vigilant. This is part of the initial post I put on the a forum months ago, and I feel I need to share this here at the national level.:

A while back I had my first encounter with LEO’s while Open Carrying. I thought I would open carry while my girlfriend and I went around and did errands. We get to Wal-Mart in Auburn and as we get out of the car a large black truck honks its horn at us. At first we ignore it, then he continues. We stop and turn around, a man opens his door and tells me I need to conceal my weapon. I told the man politely that I didn’t need too, that Open carry is legal.

He retorted that it wasn’t, then “asked” me to conceal my weapon before I went inside the store. I told him I didn’t have to and he informed me he was a Lee county Sheriff Deputy—He was not in uniform and he did not present a badge or I.D. He got out of his vehicle and got in my face. I told him Article 1 sec. 26 (of the State Constitution) allowed me to carry. He asked if I was a lawyer and I said I didn’t have to tell him. I just figured I would walk away, I didn’t want problems. He said he would call “the boys.” And returned to his truck.
My girlfriend and I proceeded to go inside Wal-Mart. We shopped as normal, and then I saw uniformed Auburn Police officers wandering the store. They hadn’t spotted me, but I knew they were looking for me. So I wanted to let them know I didn’t mean any harm I politely approached an officer and said “There was a man outside who said I couldn’t open carry…”

LEO(1): “So you’re the guy? Where is it?”
I showed the officer my weapon by canting my hip.
LEO (1): “Okay, I’m going to take it—“ He proceeds to take my weapon “You can Open Carry but I’m going to take it.”
Me: “I do not consent to any illegal searches”
LEO(1): “You are not being searched”
Me: “You are seizing my weapon illegally officer.”
I asked if I was being detained, he said no.

With my weapon in his hand he orders me to the back of the store, I ask him if we can do this in public. He has just disarmed me and is ordering me to a secluded area. He then tells me he will move me by force if needed to the back of the store. I say I will comply only because you are forcing me.
He calls his fellow LEO’s we go to the back near the bathroom area and there they officers question me. One went to fine the Wal-Mart staff. LEO 1 unloaded my weapon and set it on a counter nearby.

Wal-Mart staff comes out eventually after more harassment from these police officers. The Manager asks if everything is under control. He said that so long as I was following state law then it was fine no matter what I did. The cops were adamant in their opinion that I had to concealed carry, but they also said open carry was legal. They said I was on Private property and that I couldn’t open carry. I said there was no signs posted, and no Wal-Mart employee told me to stop Open Carrying. I have the full dialogue on my phone audio recorder and I have some really horrible footage on my handy dandy “HD” watch camera (with audio). I always carry it just in case of this kind of BS.
Eventually a Wal-Mart manager, not the head guy (he had left when he said there were no problems reported in the store) was badgered by the cops to get me to either conceal my weapon or put it in the trunk of my car. I said I would do what Wal-Mart wanted, because it’s their property and I respect their rights. They asked me to conceal it. I would have just left but my girl needed some stuff from the store, so we shopped as normal after they gave me back my weapon.

*The Auburn Police Department only met with me after I attempted many times to get into contact with them. Once I was with them they pretty much chided me for Open Carrying. All I wanted was for them the tell Wal-Mart that I wasn't wrong from Open Carrying. At this meeting asked me if I was recording them--public servents, on public property, during the commission of the public duties. I may or may not have recorded them (In Alabama we are a "one party state"). Their lack of response and belittling remarks show that they don't care. They actually told me I would get hassled for Open Carrying. But anyway---here is the video. It is the audio from my phone (it was better quality), kind of soft but check it out, there are two parts.

Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1dBhO1NBtg&feature=plcp

Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR7XnHDJxn0

If this is not the right place for this, admins please move it. Thank you.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
If you post this on BamaCarry.org, you will reach a lot more Alabama carriers with your experience.

I suggest another lawyer. An arrest makes a better case, but is not necessary to establish that your rights were violated. See St. John v. McColley. The victim was never arrested and still scored $14,000 from the officers involved who "knew or should have known" that OC is legal. These guys even admitted knowing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.
 
Last edited:

armyman_83

New member
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
5
Location
Alabama
If you post this on BamaCarry.org, you will reach a lot more Alabama carriers with your experience.

I suggest another lawyer. An arrest makes a better case, but is not necessary to establish that your rights were violated. See St. John v. McColley. The victim was never arrested and still scored $14,000 from the officers involved who "knew or should have known" that OC is legal. These guys even admitted knowing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.


Will do, thanks Eye95. I heard Alabama OC recently had a lot of changes.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Most of the folks from that site now post on BamaCarry.org, including almost every one of the original members.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

decklin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
758
Location
Pacific, WA
I would definitely consult a different lawyer. You were illegally detained the moment they seized (illegally) your weapon.

Never, I say again, never go to a secluded area with police! You stay in the most public place you can!

Good job with the recording, though.

Good Luck.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
True. Voluntarily going with them to the secluded area may give them a reason to try to claim that this was a consensual encounter. Inform them that you are going nowhere unless you are in custody. Tell them that you will not resist them if they take you by the arm and pull you where they REQUIRE you to go. Put them on the hook.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

armyman_83

New member
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
5
Location
Alabama
True. Voluntarily going with them to the secluded area may give them a reason to try to claim that this was a consensual encounter. Inform them that you are going nowhere unless you are in custody. Tell them that you will not resist them if they take you by the arm and pull you where they REQUIRE you to go. Put them on the hook.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Yeah thats why I stated at least "I am going to the back of the store because you are forcing me to the back of the store."
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
That is good because you were recording, but if the officers did not acknowledge your statement that they were forcing you, they might yet claim that they were not. Make them take an undeniable overt act.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
I would've refused to go to the back of the store.

asking if you're being detained though was useless at that point, you were obviously being detained. When he said in the loud elevated voice "I WILL NOT ASK AGAIN" I would stated "I do not consent to this detention and would like to speak with an attorney" Then if he's going to arrest you he's going to arrest you, you can't help that, but by forcing his hand you would've had a better case for a civil suit, not to say you weren't wronged, you certainly were.

If you can find a lawyer who will take the case then go for the Title 42 USC action. If money is no object to you you can always request prosecution under 18 USC 242, which is a criminal charge and not civil liability. Never heard of a cop prosecuted under that statute but never hurts to try.

This is in addition to seeking relief under state statutes and filing complaints against the officers involved too.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Mr. Trujillo also said his Department will attempt to identify what circumstances, if any, under the law of trespass in New Mexico, police officers may act on behalf of private property owners to ask people carrying guns to leave private property, or if the private owner or his agent must provide this notice.
This dude is a real piece of work. Get smacked down and keep on keeping on. Though, he did officially state that a future policy will be to have some beat cop act for a property owner if they could get away with it. So much for property rights in this dudes mind.
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
In Alabama, the owner or his agent must trespass someone. I have personal experience with this one. The officers at Target tried desperately to trespass me. The manager called corporate. They told him no. He told the officers no.

I issued a mental raspberry at the officers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

LESGTINCT

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
127
Location
Connecticut
Hello All,

I posted this story on the Alabama Open Carry website and wanted to post it here, to spread the attention I think it needs, to remind us to remain vigilant. This is part of the initial post I put on the a forum months ago, and I feel I need to share this here at the national level.:

A while back I had my first encounter with LEO’s while Open Carrying. I thought I would open carry while my girlfriend and I went around and did errands. We get to Wal-Mart in Auburn and as we get out of the car a large black truck honks its horn at us. At first we ignore it, then he continues. We stop and turn around, a man opens his door and tells me I need to conceal my weapon. I told the man politely that I didn’t need too, that Open carry is legal.

He retorted that it wasn’t, then “asked” me to conceal my weapon before I went inside the store. I told him I didn’t have to and he informed me he was a Lee county Sheriff Deputy—He was not in uniform and he did not present a badge or I.D. He got out of his vehicle and got in my face. I told him Article 1 sec. 26 (of the State Constitution) allowed me to carry. He asked if I was a lawyer and I said I didn’t have to tell him. I just figured I would walk away, I didn’t want problems. He said he would call “the boys.” And returned to his truck.
My girlfriend and I proceeded to go inside Wal-Mart. We shopped as normal, and then I saw uniformed Auburn Police officers wandering the store. They hadn’t spotted me, but I knew they were looking for me. So I wanted to let them know I didn’t mean any harm I politely approached an officer and said “There was a man outside who said I couldn’t open carry…”

LEO(1): “So you’re the guy? Where is it?”
I showed the officer my weapon by canting my hip.
LEO (1): “Okay, I’m going to take it—“ He proceeds to take my weapon “You can Open Carry but I’m going to take it.”
Me: “I do not consent to any illegal searches”
LEO(1): “You are not being searched”
Me: “You are seizing my weapon illegally officer.”
I asked if I was being detained, he said no.

With my weapon in his hand he orders me to the back of the store, I ask him if we can do this in public. He has just disarmed me and is ordering me to a secluded area. He then tells me he will move me by force if needed to the back of the store. I say I will comply only because you are forcing me.
He calls his fellow LEO’s we go to the back near the bathroom area and there they officers question me. One went to fine the Wal-Mart staff. LEO 1 unloaded my weapon and set it on a counter nearby.

Wal-Mart staff comes out eventually after more harassment from these police officers. The Manager asks if everything is under control. He said that so long as I was following state law then it was fine no matter what I did. The cops were adamant in their opinion that I had to concealed carry, but they also said open carry was legal. They said I was on Private property and that I couldn’t open carry. I said there was no signs posted, and no Wal-Mart employee told me to stop Open Carrying. I have the full dialogue on my phone audio recorder and I have some really horrible footage on my handy dandy “HD” watch camera (with audio). I always carry it just in case of this kind of BS.
Eventually a Wal-Mart manager, not the head guy (he had left when he said there were no problems reported in the store) was badgered by the cops to get me to either conceal my weapon or put it in the trunk of my car. I said I would do what Wal-Mart wanted, because it’s their property and I respect their rights. They asked me to conceal it. I would have just left but my girl needed some stuff from the store, so we shopped as normal after they gave me back my weapon.

*The Auburn Police Department only met with me after I attempted many times to get into contact with them. Once I was with them they pretty much chided me for Open Carrying. All I wanted was for them the tell Wal-Mart that I wasn't wrong from Open Carrying. At this meeting asked me if I was recording them--public servents, on public property, during the commission of the public duties. I may or may not have recorded them (In Alabama we are a "one party state"). Their lack of response and belittling remarks show that they don't care. They actually told me I would get hassled for Open Carrying. But anyway---here is the video. It is the audio from my phone (it was better quality), kind of soft but check it out, there are two parts.

Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1dBhO1NBtg&feature=plcp

Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR7XnHDJxn0

If this is not the right place for this, admins please move it. Thank you.

If it is illegal to OC then the deputy would have just arrested you instead of the nonsense that followed. He obviously didn't know what to do or his State's own gun laws.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
I wouldn't have let them take my gun. And I will never let cops take my gun.

kid, you may not know this, but even if a cop is outside his authority, physically fighting or resisting him is a bad idea. let me break this down for you

He takes your gun, you verbally refuse but don't physically resist, you can complain and possibly take legal action

you do physically resist him you get shot and people will think you were "an attempted cop-killer" and if you survive you can expect to be prosecuted for assaulting an officer and see a profound change in your quality of life.

DO NOT physically fight with an officer over the gun.
You do not know if RAS really does exist or not from your point of view at the time the incident occurs. what if someone reported someone matching your description as fleeing the scene of a robbery? you wouldn't know that, and officers do not often reveal evidence when investigating suspects. There is no obligation to justify probable cause TO YOU. probable cause comes into play when his sergeant has to approve the arrest and you are arraigned before a judge. not to you on the side of the road.

very bad idea to resist in that fashion...
 

saiga12boy

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
109
Location
Colorado
kid, you may not know this, but even if a cop is outside his authority, physically fighting or resisting him is a bad idea. let me break this down for you

He takes your gun, you verbally refuse but don't physically resist, you can complain and possibly take legal action

you do physically resist him you get shot and people will think you were "an attempted cop-killer" and if you survive you can expect to be prosecuted for assaulting an officer and see a profound change in your quality of life.

DO NOT physically fight with an officer over the gun.
You do not know if RAS really does exist or not from your point of view at the time the incident occurs. what if someone reported someone matching your description as fleeing the scene of a robbery? you wouldn't know that, and officers do not often reveal evidence when investigating suspects. There is no obligation to justify probable cause TO YOU. probable cause comes into play when his sergeant has to approve the arrest and you are arraigned before a judge. not to you on the side of the road.

very bad idea to resist in that fashion...

COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Inappropriate
 
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Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Last edited:

SFCRetired

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Montgomery, Alabama, USA
I know there's a risk but they're not taking my gun because I refuse to bow down and let them take my rights away.( I know that's not what you were implying so please don't take it personal.) I'd try to walk away first but if they told me to hand my gun over I would refuse and tell them my rights. If they asked again i'd put my hand on my gun. And if they threatened me i'd pull my gun out. If they attempted to pull theirs out i'd shoot. My state has the "make my day" law so I couldn't be prosecuted. ( Though the other cops would find me and attempt to kill me for it and make up some reason why it's justified)
P.S. I'm not one of those people that thinks they're invincible and that they'll win every gunfight I just believe that to protect my and everyone else's rights I would risk my life. Though I would prefer for it to end without bloodshed.

Please take an old soldier's advice: If you take the actions you have outlined above, you will be shot the instant you put your hand on your gun. Don't do it. It is far better to passively resist and, when they do take the firearm and you have it all recorded, take them to Federal court and take them for everything you can.

FWIW, if you did succeed in shooting the cop trying to take your weapon, you would, repeat WOULD, be prosecuted. I wouldn't place any bets against you also being convicted and sentenced to a very long stretch in prison.

Again please take my advice and also do some legal research. As Momma used to say, "You're leading your ducks to a very dangerous pond."
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
...You do not know if RAS really does exist or not from your point of view at the time the incident occurs...

This is the key. If the officer has RAS, physically resisting him is a crime, potentially a felony. Always refuse to consent, make the officer take on overt act, but do not resist.

Anything else is foolish and risky.
 

Beantownfan321

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
39
Location
Space Coast FL
I'll also second the advice to NOT put your hand on your weapon. I guarantee that is the quickest way to get yourself killed. And I can almost take bets that most officers can draw and fire faster than you. We do it thousands of times, whereas most common citizen does not. That may not be true in your case though.

Consult another attorney.
 
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