Thoughts on crossdraw?

Citizen · Nov 16, 2012

MikeTheGreek said:
I'm a mechanic, so I spend a huge part of my day sitting in cars, and driving cars. I carry a CZ75B, and since it's a big gun, my iTac holster digs into my side when I sit down. I was thinking that most likely, crossdraw would fix my problem, since the left side of the car usually has much more room. Has anybody tried this?

I don't ever see anybody carrying crossdraw so I don't know if there's some sort of danger from doing it, or what.

There was fella who was real respected in the gun world back in the day. He was a Border Patrol agent and supervisor from, say, the 1940's through the 1960's.. And, a demonstration speed shooter. His name was Bill Jordan.

In his book, No Second Place Winners, among a lot of other stuff, he recommended against cross-draw. He pointed out, and even used photos, that cross-draw puts your gun butt forward towards an antagonist, making a gun-grab that much easier.

While one might say, "Oh, I'm not a cop so I won't have to worry about that," also consider the situation where an unarmed antagonist escalates a simple argument, and then suddenly decides to pull a gun on you---yours.

I vaguely recall Jordan saying that easy gun-grabs was the reason some police departments made policies against cross-draw.

For anybody interested, I think the book is still available and in print. Maybe available through GunLaws.com or Paladin Press or something like that. Great book. Its not full of self-defense ninja stuff. Just old time common sense stuff that you sometimes wouldn't have thought about. Some very interesting. For example, he recommended for new guys to avoid the habit of resting their hand on the their holster. Said it stretches the holster. When you go to draw, the gun doesn't come out of the holster--holster and gun come upward together. Of course, this was back in the day of revolver holsters that hung down a ways from the belt. Not really applicable with today's OWB holsters that carry the cylinder or chamber at or above the belt line. But, interesting nonetheless, to see what the old timers had learned.

MikeTheGreek · Nov 16, 2012

Citizen said:
There was fella who was real respected in the gun world back in the day. He was a Border Patrol agent and supervisor from, say, the 1940's through the 1960's.. And, a demonstration speed shooter. His name was Bill Jordan.

In his book, No Second Place Winners, among a lot of other stuff, he recommended against cross-draw. He pointed out, and even used photos, that cross-draw puts your gun butt forward towards an antagonist, making a gun-grab that much easier.

While one might say, "Oh, I'm not a cop so I won't have to worry about that," also consider the situation where an unarmed antagonist escalates a simple argument, and then suddenly decides to pull a gun on you---yours.

I vaguely recall Jordan saying that easy gun-grabs was the reason some police departments made policies against cross-draw.

For anybody interested, I think the book is still available and in print. Maybe available through GunLaws.com or Paladin Press or something like that. Great book. Its not full of self-defense ninja stuff. Just old time common sense stuff that you sometimes wouldn't have thought about. Some very interesting. For example, he recommended for new guys to avoid the habit of resting their hand on the their holster. Said it stretches the holster. When you go to draw, the gun doesn't come out of the holster--holster and gun come upward together. Of course, this was back in the day of revolver holsters that hung down a ways from the belt. Not really applicable with today's OWB holsters that carry the cylinder or chamber at or above the belt line. But, interesting nonetheless, to see what the old timers had learned.

I'd unload my gun and pay money to anyone who can get past me, press the button on my holster and take my gun away. You'd have to be insanely calm, focused, and smooth to do that, which would require some serious training. Now..I don't plan on getting into a fight with Steven Seagal, so I'm not insanely worried.

+ If somebody can take it out of my crossdraw, they could just as easily come up behind me if I was carrying it normally and take it. Now I can see them coming.

Citizen · Nov 16, 2012

MikeTheGreek said:
I'd unload my gun and pay money to anyone who can get past me, press the button on my holster and take my gun away. You'd have to be insanely calm, focused, and smooth to do that, which would require some serious training. Now..I don't plan on getting into a fight with Steven Seagal, so I'm not insanely worried.

+ If somebody can take it out of my crossdraw, they could just as easily come up behind me if I was carrying it normally and take it. Now I can see them coming.

OK. If its not a problem for your exact circumstances, its not a problem. As the OCDO motto goes, Carry On!

FreeInAZ · Nov 16, 2012

MikeTheGreek said:
SNIP...

+ If somebody can take it out of my crossdraw, they could just as easily come up behind me if I was carrying it normally and take it. Now I can see them coming.

This is why retention (not just holsters, but arm/hand placement) is important combined with situational awareness. Many of us OCers carry two or more pistols. Just in case of a grab attempt. It can be done well even without a CPL.

FreeInAZ · Nov 16, 2012

Mike - one last thing.

DO NOT CARRY A POCKET KNIFE when you OC.

Police have used the sight of a bulged pocket (knife) as an excuse to detain and arrest an otherwise legal OCer in MI. Why? Because knives are not covered under preemption and many cities still have laws against carrying them on the books in MI. If you must carry a knife, carry it in a case on your belt where it is in plain sight, to minimize the concealed dangerous weapon bunk.

Bikenut · Nov 16, 2012

FreeInAZ said:
Mike - one last thing.

DO NOT CARRY A POCKET KNIFE when you OC.

Police have used the sight of a bulged pocket (knife) as an excuse to detain and arrest an otherwise legal OCer in MI. Why? Because knives are not covered under preemption and many cities still have laws against carrying them on the books in MI. If you must carry a knife, carry it in a case on your belt where it is in plain sight, to minimize the concealed dangerous weapon bunk.

I don't personally know of any ordinances banning knives outright but I do know that just to be sure I'd have to search the ordinances of every county, township, city, town, and 4 way whistle stop, that I might happen to be in/pass through during my daily life.

And if there is a charge of a jack knife being a "dangerous weapon" or a "concealed weapon".... I'm aware that an argument can be made that a jack knife isn't a "weapon" but is a "tool"... but I'm also aware that if anything happened that argument would be made in a court room.

So... to err on the safe side since I always carry a gun I no longer carry a blade of any kind. Although I must admit I do miss the convenience of a good jack knife.

But that is my reasoning and my decision.... y'all make up your own minds.

WARCHILD · Nov 16, 2012

@ Citizen: Not to disagree or argue; just a point of interest.

Whenever I hear the "gun grab" scenario, I have to kinda chuckle and put it in the same comment as "think of the children".

When we take on the responsibility of carrying a gun our awareness should never be lax enough to let anyone get within distance to even attempt a grab. No matter what the scenario, friendly or antagonist; they should not be within your safe zone without you taking steps to defend yourself. Even in my own family gatherings, when the hugging starts, the first place my left hand goes is on my gun and hug with the right. Paranoid; no, just taking prudent precautions in any situation.

Also from a cross draw position, the gun cannot be grabbed from behind (due to poor SA) and used as a lever to throw you off balance. I have seen this demonstrated.

But that's another discussion of worms in itself.

JMO

Michigander · Nov 16, 2012

Bikenut said:
I don't personally know of any ordinances banning knives outright

Warren had one banning carry, or almost. It also covered guns. Fatboysykes went to challenge it years ago, addressing the city council. I don't remember and honestly don't care about how or if they amended that law, considering the fact that warren is warren.

As much as I miss carrying knives, including big ones, my practice since I started carrying guns is to leave knives at work and at home. If I need to have a knife for a picnic, I bring a stupidly small one, and one that I won't miss too badly if a cop steals it.

For those who live in more rural areas, or otherwise feel like mapping out the local laws of their region, the knife thing is workable. It's just a pain, at least for a gun rights activist who some cops already detest.

Michigander · Nov 16, 2012

Warchild and citizen, I do think you're both right, especially if we consider the holsters that were available back in Bill Jordan's day, with flap holsters and clam shell holsters being about as good as it got.

In a rural area, an OCer need not worry as much about grabs, because distance can be kept, and in those circumstances where it can't, the OCer can pay attention to who he or she stands next to. In this type of circumstance, especially considering a passive retention holster, I would side with warchild that cross draw offers the best in retention.

If we consider somewhere truly crowded, my reference point for Michigan is the dream cruise since it's about as crowded as rush hour in NYC, then if I'm OCing I'll be carrying strong side in a level 3 Safariland. But even still, being someone who has been disarmed by cops, it remains in my head that someone who knows how a safariland works could attempt a surprise grab from behind that I'd have seen coming if carrying from the other side, and it's important to remember that airsoft replicas and youtube have made it so that certain people who shouldn't know how retention holsters work now do know how they work.

While cross draw has it's benefits, it does have slower deployment which could more easily be grabbed at, especially if someone is right up on you and you have to fire from the hip with your other arm managing the distance from your attacker. This is why I almost always choose strong side with good retention, combined with almost paranoid situational awareness.

FreeInAZ · Nov 16, 2012

Michigander said:
Warren had one banning carry, or almost. It also covered guns. Fatboysykes went to challenge it years ago, addressing the city council. I don't remember and honestly don't care about how or if they amended that law, considering the fact that warren is warren.

As much as I miss carrying knives, including big ones, my practice since I started carrying guns is to leave knives at work and at home. If I need to have a knife for a picnic, I bring a stupidly small one, and one that I won't miss too badly if a cop steals it.

For those who live in more rural areas, or otherwise feel like mapping out the local laws of their region, the knife thing is workable. It's just a pain, at least for a gun rights activist who some cops already detest.

Hey anyone heard from old FatBoy? I saw him at the ER (Harper Hosp.) in the medical center downtown a couple of years back. He was working and I was waiting to be worked on ...:uhoh: Not fun times for me. Hope he is doing well.

MikeTheGreek · Nov 16, 2012

FreeInAZ said:
Mike - one last thing.

DO NOT CARRY A POCKET KNIFE when you OC.

Police have used the sight of a bulged pocket (knife) as an excuse to detain and arrest an otherwise legal OCer in MI. Why? Because knives are not covered under preemption and many cities still have laws against carrying them on the books in MI. If you must carry a knife, carry it in a case on your belt where it is in plain sight, to minimize the concealed dangerous weapon bunk.

I've been carrying a pocket knife clipped to my back pocket, next to my wallet, for years. I've never been hassled (Except once at the border going to Canada, it's legal to carry one across if it meets Canadian legal standards, but you have to tell them at the booth apparently). I carry it for work, and because I usually use it for something once or twice a day even when I'm not working.

Michigander said:
Warren had one banning carry, or almost. It also covered guns. Fatboysykes went to challenge it years ago, addressing the city council. I don't remember and honestly don't care about how or if they amended that law, considering the fact that warren is warren..

They do? My ex lived in Warren and I was out there almost every day, I had a cop actually look at my belt and say nice knife once when I was carrying one of my nicer ones. I have about 28 (ish) knives. I like blades.

I actually have a Ka-Bar which APPARENTLY is legal to Carry in Michigan, but if I carry that on my belt next to my CZ I'm just looking for a cop to harass me. No bueno.

Michigander · Nov 16, 2012

MikeTheGreek said:
They do? My ex lived in Warren and I was out there almost every day, I had a cop actually look at my belt and say nice knife once when I was carrying one of my nicer ones. I have about 28 (ish) knives. I like blades..

The Warren PD has gone out of their way to screw with OCers. Why is well known only to them it would seem. If you're just average joe schmuck, they probably won't mess with you. If you OC a gun there, make sure you are thoroughly legal, carrying two recorders or more, have money for a court battle (there have been many that they have generated) and preferably have witnesses there too. On the topic of Fatboycykes, he was cuffed if I remember right, and definitely put in the back of a cop car, at which point the cop decided to shut off his recorder. He was then maliciously prosecuted.

Of course there are the other incidents, some of them both similar and worse, but I see little need to describe them in detail. The bottom line is that they are probably the most criminally aggressive department that I am aware of in the state of Michigan in terms of harassing and even assaulting OCers. They get away with it too, because even good cops don't like to take out the thin blue line's trash. Do not underestimate that PD. It could cost you dearly.

MikeTheGreek · Nov 16, 2012

Michigander said:
The Warren PD has gone out of their way to screw with OCers. Why is well known only to them it would seem. If you're just average joe schmuck, they probably won't mess with you. If you OC a gun there, make sure you are thoroughly legal, carrying two recorders or more, have money for a court battle (there have been many that they have generated) and preferably have witnesses there too. On the topic of Fatboycykes, he was cuffed if I remember right, and definitely put in the back of a cop car, at which point the cop decided to shut off his recorder. He was then maliciously prosecuted.

Of course there are the other incidents, some of them both similar and worse, but I see little need to describe them in detail. The bottom line is that they are probably the most criminally aggressive department that I am aware of in the state of Michigan in terms of harassing and even assaulting OCers. They get away with it too, because even good cops don't like to take out the thin blue line's trash. Do not underestimate that PD. It could cost you dearly.

I should definitely look into some recorders, I forgot about that.

I have a lawyer, a DPD Detective and a few Wayne County Sheriffs on speed dial, just in case a moronic cop wants to attempt to illegally detain/arrest me for doing something perfectly legal.

I need to get some of those trifolds. Has anyone made cards yet? I'm not sure if you can fit enough information on a card to make it useful, but it's a thought.

DrTodd · Nov 17, 2012

Bronson said:
Not trying to bust your balls here but if the bolded is true you need to study more and STOP GETTING INTO CARS WITH YOUR GUN ON!

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(jy...0-227&query=on&highlight=concealed AND pistol

And before you ask the "place of business" is not wherever you work, you must own the business. And no, neither the owner of the business nor the car can give you permission to carry it in the car if you don't have a CPL.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(gg...ctname=mcl-750-231a&query=on&highlight=pistol

In order to have it in a car you MUST have a CPL from your state of residence. That cop was either misinformed or lying to you, and thus the lesson for the day...never, EVER take a police officer's opinion of the law as the actual law.

Bronson

+1

Yooper · Nov 18, 2012

One scenario to consider with cross draw, is where you end up on the ground, on your back, with someone/something on top of you. Are you going to be able to reach across your chest, and possibly someone/something else to retrieve your gun?

Secondly, in most cases, people can draw faster carrying strong side. 1, there's less distance for your hand to cover, and 2 as soon as your gun clears the holster you can point an shoot from the hip if need be.

Bikenut · Nov 18, 2012

Crossdraw also can interfere with accessing a BUG that is carried in a place that the weak hand can get to.

I personally think a BUG should be available to the weak hand because if the strong hand can't get to the main carry it likely can't get to the BUG either.....

Y'all make up your own minds....

Michigander · Nov 18, 2012

Bikenut said:
Crossdraw also can interfere with accessing a BUG that is carried in a place that the weak hand can get to.

An exceptionally good point. This is why my backup stays in my left back pants pocket. This way I can reach it with my left or right hand, even if I'm cross draw carrying.

FreeInAZ · Nov 18, 2012

If you do want to use the crossdraw form of carry, I suggest you use the 11 or 1 o'clock positions depending on what hand is your strong hand. Many old west gun fighters used this for good reasons. It also aids in retention as the gun is near your center making grabs more difficult. Now sitting down requires some effort with this setup.

This video is more cowboy action in nature but gives you a visual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLWLpIskVx4

Raggs · Nov 19, 2012

MikeTheGreek, found this and thought you might like it http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0101.html

griffin · Nov 19, 2012

This seems highly exaggerated. I've tried it many times and I have no similar problems drawing a full-sized handgun from my strong side while seated in my car or truck. Most of this guy's problem would be avoided if he sat up straight instead of leaning back into the seat. His elbow could also go between the seats (if necessary). This contrived position of leaning back, then sideways forces your arm into an awkward position. But hey, what do I know?

Thoughts on crossdraw?

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