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ak pistol oc

standup

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2012
Messages
26
Location
bellingham
What are the opinions on how one would legally oc with a loaded ak pistol?

www.arsenalinc.com/usa/SAM7K_PISTOL.html


This is manufactured and imported as a pistol. Not a sbr/aow.... and not looking to.

This is a legal PISTOL.

I know its concealable and can be loaded in car with my cpl.

But how does one legally oc with this PISTOL?

It has a sling, either one or two point attachment?

Can i legally throw it over my shoulder or around my neck?

Thoughts on legal oc of this PISTOL are appreciated.
 

Schlepnier

Regular Member
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May 12, 2011
Messages
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Location
Yelm, Washington USA
I also have an AR pistol and i'm pretty sure(but I am not a lawyer so talk to rapgood for that one) if you have it slung or in one of those custom holsters it is fine for carry, so long as your not holding it AKA brandishing.

HOWEVER I also would tell you it is NOT PRACTICAL to carry it as an OC or even CC weapon for personal protection as it is to unwieldy to be useful.
The 30rnd mag sticks out quite a ways on mine. while I love the way it feels to have a compact weapon which is also fun to shoot, it is really designed to be carried in hand which would be a NOGO for OC or CC.

If your carrying for protection use a compact pistol, save the AR/AK pistols for the range, rallies, home defense, and the back country.
 
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amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Right, wrong, or otherwise, you're bound to get a lot of unwanted attention when openly carrying one of these (or an AR Pistol for that matter).

An openly carried pistol/revolver (of the conventional type) is often unnoticed by others when the carrier is just going about their business in a normal manner.

If you like bringing attention to yourself, you'll surely be successful. The question is will it be the kind you want?
 

standup

Regular Member
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Jul 28, 2012
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Location
bellingham
Thank you for the three replies.

However the question still stands...

How does one legally open carry a legal pistol that happens to be of an unusual size?

Is it legal to have a slung loaded pistol?

I am trying to better understand what open carry can be outside of a holster?

Should this be any different than a shoulder holster?

I want the legal, not the opinion.
 

decklin

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
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Pacific, WA
Thank you for the three replies.

However the question still stands...

How does one legally open carry a legal pistol that happens to be of an unusual size?

Is it legal to have a slung loaded pistol?

I am trying to better understand what open carry can be outside of a holster?

Should this be any different than a shoulder holster?

I want the legal, not the opinion.

You should read through the posts again. They've already answered your questions.
 

standup

Regular Member
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Jul 28, 2012
Messages
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Location
bellingham
@Decklin

I noticed you provided no information.

The first response says "pretty sure"...

The next responses are all opinions about how they think about this weapon as a carry option.

The question remains.
 

tombrewster421

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May 25, 2010
Messages
1,326
Location
Roy, WA
@Decklin

I noticed you provided no information.

The first response says "pretty sure"...

The next responses are all opinions about how they think about this weapon as a carry option.

The question remains.

If you can lawfully carry a slung rifle then you can do the same for a rifle design pistol. If the laws don't say you can't, then you can. Carry on!
 

golddigger14s

Activist Member
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Apr 27, 2010
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Lawton, OK USA
If you truly want a "legal" statement, your best recourse is to consult an actual lawyer. Most of us here are not lawyers, we are just your basic everyday keyboard ninjas with only opinions to go by.
 

arentol

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Apr 10, 2009
Messages
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Kent, Washington, USA
IIRC someone on the Washington board here has in the past posted a picture of themselves at a rally with a pistol of that size in a belt/leg holster.... A rally with police present who did not give the person any trouble over it.

That being said, nobody, and I truly mean nobody, not even the Washington State attorney general, can tell you that any given manner of open carry for that gun is legal.

Why do I say this? Simple... Because, quite frankly, the written law on OC is vague, and there is almost no case law on the subject, so it remains vague.

As an example, last I heard anyway, a guy in Vancouver was convicted for OC' ing near a store that had been robbed at gun point the day before. That may be overturned by now, or in the future, but even if it is, he will never get back the years of headaches it caused him.

So the real answer is... Technically the law says you can not OC in a time, place, and manner that warrants alarm, and wtf that means to any given citizen, police officer, prosecuter, jury, or future State Supreme Court is a complete unknown.... In addition, it is fair to assume that, regardless, that size gun will be far more likely to cause all those groups to think it warrants alarm far more often than a smaller handgun.

So you roll your dice and take your chances every single time you OC in this state, and the bigger the gun, the riskier the bet. (Fortunately though, most of the police in this state are no longer being stupid about this issue so smaller guns are almost no worry at all in practice).

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
 

Grapeshot

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Valhalla
More to the point - what is and what is not acceptable as a practice to be promoted or encouraged on OCDO. We've been that route for a while with an individual who danced around with the rules, carried an AK style pistol, even painted it orange - all of that did little good for the forum or the movement to normalize acceptance. Most felt he was bringing a negative reaction instead of a positive contribution. Ultimately he was banned.

Mike and John have made it quite clear that "This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life." (condensed from rule #14) That has been the limiting factor on this site for some time.

What may be legal in your state is really not the question. The idea behind OC as viewed by the site owners is to promote and defend OCing as we go about our normal everyday lives - to gain acceptance through normalization of seeing LAC in a non-threatening way - grocery shopping, taking the dog for a walk, gassing up the ol' truck.

Exotic or unusual versions that don't fit the profile and/or is done as a "see what I can do and get away with it" is not going to find acceptance here. We are about improving our public relations, not radicalizing our image.

Does that mean we condemn those that enjoy AK or AR style pistols? Not at all, but a small version EBR is not a fit for what for is considered to be the standard of excellence here.
 
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standup

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Location
bellingham
Thank you for the more thoughtful responses.

That is the reason i come here. I also respect the rules and value the goals.

I can see a time and a place for when someone who owns an ar/ ak pistol may need to legally carry their pistol in public.

Besides there are all kind of scenarios where you may have to open carry in a manner that is less than desirable, less than Sunday's best... and still need to be legal.

We should talk about what that is in our own state.

I was seeking rcw clarification after seeing those pistols offered on the above link.

I am not trying to get away with anything. Its law abiding citizens that help prevent getting away.
 

Grapeshot

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--snipped--

So the real answer is... Technically the law says you can not OC in a time, place, and manner that warrants alarm, and wtf that means to any given citizen, police officer, prosecuter, jury, or future State Supreme Court is a complete unknown.... In addition, it is fair to assume that, regardless, that size gun will be far more likely to cause all those groups to think it warrants alarm far more often than a smaller handgun.

So you roll your dice and take your chances every single time you OC in this state, and the bigger the gun, the riskier the bet. (Fortunately though, most of the police in this state are no longer being stupid about this issue so smaller guns are almost no worry at all in practice).

--snipped--

We should talk about what that is in our own state.

I was seeking rcw clarification after seeing those pistols offered on the above link.

I am not trying to get away with anything. Its law abiding citizens that help prevent getting away.
If someone will provide a cite for arentol's reply - that will give you the best answer you are likely to get as OC is not always will defined.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
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Whatcom County
Standup....come to Starbucks on Sundays....there are reasons to have AK or AR pistols that are valid reasons and there are places where it is more prudent to have them in your possession.


And there is a Bill of Rights Rally July 6th at O'Donnell's Flea Market the old Toyota dealership off of Ellis.
 

Schlepnier

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May 12, 2011
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Location
Yelm, Washington USA
If someone will provide a cite for arentol's reply - that will give you the best answer you are likely to get as OC is not always will defined.

Actually his quote is a little bit off-
RCW 9.41.270:
" It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

Intent is key to this law which is why it is such a poorly written piece of legislation-, see below:


- What is "Warranting alarm", why do people (firearms instructors, police officers, gun shop employees) say that this law makes it illegal t o open carry? In 1969, RCW 9.41.270 was passed in light of the intimidating actions of the Black Panther Party in both the State of California and in Seattle. Analysis of the legislative intent behind the bill and final law indicated that the Washington State Legislature never intended this to be a gun control bill, and stripped out in committee provisions of the bill which would have prohibited carry within 500 feet of any "public building" for fear it would ensnare a peaceable open carrier walking nearby, thereby violating a persons rights under Article 1, Section 24 of the Washington State Constitution. This is not to say that all forms of open carry are lawful. The key word is "peaceable". If your pistol is in a holster, and you're generally not touching it or making gripping movements (except of course, in an actual act of self defense), or opening a coat to expose your pistol to intimidate someone to do something, then the current body of case law (state v casad, state v. spencer, chan v seattle) generally makes such carry lawful.
 
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MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 10, 2011
Messages
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Location
Philipsburg, Montana
So......... you roll your dice and take your chances every single time you OC ...........

This is Truth. You roll the dice every time.
I like SBRs but cannot legally own one in Wa State, so I too, go the rifle platform pistol (AR) but not for my EDC. Grape was spot on when he reffered to.. "This web site is focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life." While an AK or AR pistol is decidedly high on the "tacticool" list it is not what is considered "Normal" carry.
We work very hard to make the EDC of openly carried firearms "normal" again as it was in the past. Standup, come see us on sunday and join in the "Grand Normalization".
 

arentol

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Apr 10, 2009
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Location
Kent, Washington, USA
....then the current body of case law (state v casad, state v. spencer, chan v seattle) generally makes such carry lawful.

State v Casad isn't published so it doesn't help.
Chan v Seattle is focused more on preemption and really doesn't flesh out OC much at all.
State v Spencer is frustrating because while it does basically say OC is definitely legal, it also basically amounts to saying that your OC intent is less important than others perception of your intent. Thus actually reinforcing my point that if others think your manner of carry warrants alarm then you may be in trouble regardless. It also makes it clear that the state believes OC of larger and "scary looking" firearms is less legal than that of smaller "safe looking" firearms.


Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
 
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Trigger Dr

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Oct 3, 2007
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Wa, ,
One thing here that is very important, the difference between "Warrants" alarm and "Causes" alarm.
If someone freaks out every time they see a tennis ball, is that a reasonable fear? I would say NO. therefore it is "causing" alarm. On the other hand if that was a reasonable fear, then it could be "Warranting" alarm.
Big difference.
 
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slapmonkay

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May 6, 2011
Messages
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Location
Montana
If someone will provide a cite for arentol's reply - that will give you the best answer you are likely to get as OC is not always will defined.

RCW 9.41.270 said:
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

Court ruling, No. 35333-4-II State v. Casad. (Not Published)
Stave v. Casad said:
The court found that “several individuals have commented that they would find it strange, maybe shocking, to see a man carrying a gun down the street in broad daylight. Casad’s appellate counsel conceded that she would personally react with shock, but she emphasized that an individual’s lack of comfort with firearms does not equate to reasonable alarm. We Agree. It is not unlawful for a person to responsibly walk down the street with a visible firearm, even if this action would shock some people.

Court ruling, 101 Wn.2d 259, STATE v. MACIOLEK, the court held:
State v. Maciolek said:
"If a weapon is displayed in a manner, under circumstances and at a time and place so that it poses a threat to another person, such a display would warrant alarm for the safety of another. Thus, narrowly construing the phrase to apply to only conduct that poses a threat to others gives the phrase a narrow and definite focus and saves it from vagueness."

Court ruling, 75 Wn. App. 118, State v. Spencer:
State v. Spencer said:
The court found that the 9.41.270 statue (referenced in Section 9, as its authority), “only prohibits the carrying or displaying of weapons when objective circumstances would warrant alarm in a reasonable person.” Further it states, “the Legislature’s use of the word ‘warrants’ in the statue implies that there must be a sufficient objective basis for the alarm, i.e., circumstances must be such that a reasonable person would be alarmed.
 
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