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Vcdl - fl-cdl

firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
Ok this is a group I could get behind http://www.vcdl.org/

We need to form a group like this and put a gag on this deceitful Ms. Hammer/USF and do our own thing without the NRA like TX had to do. The Florida Open-Carry people seem a little too timid and gullible to be the leaders of such an important association (brboyer). I left VA in ’88 so I missed the creation of this organization. I remember how restrictive VA was in the 80’s so it is obvious they have made tremendous advancement. I guess that sniper thing scared the crap out of the anti’s.

If you want to follow some more of Open-Carry and are not aware of it, there is another forum that has a section devoted to open carry http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/index.php. It’s pretty much the same guys that are on here but a little more cordial (unlike me). It’s another source that I wasn’t aware of when I started in all this. I’ve been watching them for a couple of weeks. I probably won’t be participating over there very much because since open carry got defeated I have other sites to frequent, which I’m sure won’t disappoint a few.

Good luck guys and we’ll be back. Albeit in 24 years but we will be back.

p.s. Thanks to those that PM'ed me. Be advise: opencarry.org has multiple sites with donation buttons.

Just FYI...
http://www.open-carry.org/
http://www.floridacarry.org/
http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/
 

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
p.s. Thanks to those that PM'ed me. Be advise: opencarry.org has multiple sites with donation buttons.

Just FYI...
http://www.open-carry.org/
http://www.floridacarry.org/
http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/

Um, wow.
http://www.open-carry.org/ is Florida's open carry movement supported by:
Florida Carry. http://www.floridacarry.org/ is a member organization patterned after VCDL and formed with the advice of its leadership.

http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/ is a forum that has nothing to do with any advocacy organization.
 

firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
Um, wow.
http://www.open-carry.org/ is Florida's open carry movement supported by:
Florida Carry. http://www.floridacarry.org/ is a member organization patterned after VCDL and formed with the advice of its leadership.
http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/ is a forum that has nothing to do with any advocacy organization.
OK,I didn't say anything. I just point out that they seem to be splintered. I think it would be more effective to form an organisation that does not "appear" to have a single objective limited only to the carry issue of guns.

We need to form an association without "carry" in its name. Call it the Florida Citizens Defense & Safety League IDK. Safety seems to be a catch word lately and everybody seems to jump on that ban wagon when they hear it.

The word carry (be it open or concealed) points to a single objective that has (pulling %'s out of my butt) less then a 50% support of the Citizens and most likely the same percentage of CCW holders in favor of "open" carry. I don't think you need to defend your organisation I'm just making an observation and relaying some of what I've heard when speaking about carry to groups of friends and others. Someone said that FOC (Florida Open Carry) was about four months old so it's not to late to evaluate it's defeat and it's oversight thinking USF supported you. I think the USF duped you into signing onto their bill. I think they were correct in saying you were not able to get a senator to sign on to (sponsor) a lone bill and your best shot was signing onto their's.I also think it was never their objective to get OC and we now live and learn.

IDK if anybody supports this idea or if you want my participation. I've been labeled as radical by some and timid groups don't want radical people in their association. I may seem radical with my postings in these forums but I assure you all my emails and handshakes have been cordial and professional (as I see them). Strong but polite.
 
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j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Meh, here's where I veer off-course a bit:

Once we start mincing words, and playing the -"lets call it this,to disguise that" game-like our clowns in Tally-we ending becoming them.
We dont need deception. Not to ourselves, not to potential supporters, not to the clowns in office, and certainly not to the people of Florida.

Let's call Spades, Spades, and be completely transparent about it. We have a cause.
It is a right and proper cause.
There is nothing "radical" about wanting rights that are already yours,but are legislatively denied to you, restored.
This radical label nonsense is simply that: NONSENSE
.
It is basic, political fear-mongering, wherin your oppressors choose to undermine you,demonize you, and discredit you. I say call em out on it.
Reverse it on them. Demand that they stand there, and tell you-and Florida- with a straight face WHY it is radical to demand your rights?

To me, the real radicals in this situation, are the folks who can run for office-get elected, swear an oath to our Constitution, and then turn around and deliberately,knowingly, go out of their way to deny you rights guaranteed under that very Constitution. And actually expect you to agree to it. with a smile.
Umm.... WTF,Over?

I say, on this matter, No. Call it what it is. There should be no shame in it, there should be no desire to hide/obfuscate/or deceive anyone about it.
Not even this nonsense of stuffing our agenda in with 2 or 3 other non-issue items, just in the hopes of getting it through.

Really,folks? Inter-Border purchases of long-guns? Are you people bloody serious?
How many of you out here are seeking a rifle so rare, that it cannot be acquired at any of your local gun/sporting goods retailers, that you feel compelled to have to drive from,say, Tampa, to Alabama to buy it? Is a $25 or so transfer fee to have one ordered locally and shipped such a deal-breaker, that you'll spend $100 + to drive however far to buy it? Honestly? Is such an item so high a priority that the Open carry aspect is worth sacrificing to get?

Bottom line- play the game straight. Bold, decisive, up-front. If some are openly resistant to that, or simply too squeemish about the topic, call em out on it.
And if there are elected representatives about whom people will say "there's no support for it"- well then, they've made their choice. They've identified themselves to you,me, and Florida, as the enemy of our rights..Their motives,reasons,etc. are moot. A right is a right.-It really doesnt need to be any more complicated than that. Out them. Replace them.
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
"less then a 50% support of the Citizens and most likely the same percentage of CCW holders in favor of "open" carry."

And to this: I dont see it. The issue isnt if the people are behind it. I think some of the polls-not that I put a lot of stock in polls,anyway- were mostly overwhelmingly in favor of Open Carry-prior to the bill being raped. The real issue is the # of law-makers opposing it-for whatever reason.
I think we'd find that the majority of Floridians would approve of it- the rest?...more than not simply couldnt care one way or the other. Typical voter apathy.

No, the opposition to concern yourself with are the politicians making the laws-not the people.
 

firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
"less then a 50% support of the Citizens and most likely the same percentage of CCW holders in favor of "open" carry."

And to this: I dont see it. The issue isnt if the people are behind it. I think some of the polls-not that I put a lot of stock in polls,anyway- were mostly overwhelmingly in favor of Open Carry-prior to the bill being raped. The real issue is the # of law-makers opposing it-for whatever reason.
I think we'd find that the majority of Floridians would approve of it- the rest?...more than not simply couldnt care one way or the other. Typical voter apathy.

No, the opposition to concern yourself with are the politicians making the laws-not the people.

Yea, the % figure I just snatch out of the air. I don’t think it is accurate because IDK what the real figure is. It was just a number I stuck in there. That’s why I said I pulled it out of my butt.

I think most people that have CCW permits don’t really care either way. Some however do and its not in our favor. I think that a large number of the citizens understand that concealed or open doesn’t matter, they still don’t like guns. I think that number is dwindling though. The problem was that our own people let us down.

It amazes me that over on the floridaconceledcarry forum there are guys posting, in the open carry forum, “why open carry”. They (very few, I don't want to start bashing another pro gun forum) already have concealed and open means nothing to them.

As for the name, I think a name change would entice more members and more $$. Some even less pro gun and 2A then us if it “includes” defense and safety in its charter. You would have a border spectrum of issues people care about, enticing them to donate and join. A single line item in your name will not generate the revenue needed to fight this fight, especially when the largest pro gun group doesn’t support you. The biggest problem with forming a group like this is the veering off of the main focus by the leaders. The main focus must maintain 2A rights at all time. Open Carry and the second amendment is the underlying argument for this issue in Florida.

I’m all for putting your agenda in your name but I don’t see it generating the support and dollars needed. Form a committee inside your new organization called open carry with that being their only focus in support of your charter of correcting 2A infringements.

Just my 2cents..
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
Why are there so many open carry groups. Holy crap. I just keep up with opencarry.org
 

j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
Yea, the % figure I just snatch out of the air. I don’t think it is accurate because IDK what the real figure is. It was just a number I stuck in there. That’s why I said I pulled it out of my butt.

I think most people that have CCW permits don’t really care either way. Some however do and its not in our favor. I think that a large number of the citizens understand that concealed or open doesn’t matter, they still don’t like guns. I think that number is dwindling though. The problem was that our own people let us down.

It amazes me that over on the floridaconceledcarry forum there are guys posting, in the open carry forum, “why open carry”. They (very few, I don't want to start bashing another pro gun forum) already have concealed and open means nothing to them.

As for the name, I think a name change would entice more members and more $$. Some even less pro gun and 2A then us if it “includes” defense and safety in its charter. You would have a border spectrum of issues people care about, enticing them to donate and join. A single line item in your name will not generate the revenue needed to fight this fight, especially when the largest pro gun group doesn’t support you. The biggest problem with forming a group like this is the veering off of the main focus by the leaders. The main focus must maintain 2A rights at all time. Open Carry and the second amendment is the underlying argument for this issue in Florida.

I’m all for putting your agenda in your name but I don’t see it generating the support and dollars needed. Form a committee inside your new organization called open carry with that being their only focus in support of your charter of correcting 2A infringements.

Just my 2cents..

Im not saying making it or calling it the only issue. But- it is/should be a PRIMARY issue. A top priority vs. the handful of folks whining about buying a rifle in ,say, Alabama, as opposed to the next town or county over. And certainly not to deliberately conceal or even simply obscure that aspect of it.
 

firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
FL-CDSL
Florida Citizens Defense and Safety League.

I’m going to have to start researching a financial supporter/investor for this. Maybe we can work together with Open Carry for the advancement of constitutional open carry and other 2A rights. The safety portion may prove profitable towards donations if we can offer defense classes, gun safety classes, sport shooting classes and any number of other educational opportunities. I know there are a lot of companies out there that offer these types of classes but none are non-profit and involved in 2A and open carry movements. I have contact with a few firearms instructors. I just wonder how much I would want NRA instructors involved.

FL-CDSL - A non-profit, non-partisan, grassroots organization dedicated to advancing the fundamental human right of all Floridians to be safe while maintaining their right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.
 

jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
If you guys might like some hints on how the VCDL runs its organization and has tapped the resources of a broad spectrum of citizen volunteers all over the state, consider sending a private message to " VCDL President " who is a user here and semi-regular commenter down in the Virginia forum. Users " Grapeshot "and " Peter Nap " could also be good resources especially regarding a bent toward open carry and how to advocate for it. Peter Nap is one who can get into the issues with the dangers of just having a group that seems to focus too much on the privilege of licensed carry.
 

firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
If you guys might like some hints on how the VCDL runs its organization and has tapped the resources of a broad spectrum of citizen volunteers all over the state, consider sending a private message to " VCDL President " who is a user here and semi-regular commenter down in the Virginia forum. Users " Grapeshot "and " Peter Nap " could also be good resources especially regarding a bent toward open carry and how to advocate for it. Peter Nap is one who can get into the issues with the dangers of just having a group that seems to focus too much on the privilege of licensed carry.
Thanks for the info. I will have to touch bases with them.

I’m going to talk to my bosses and see if they don’t have some resources to tap also.
They train the US military on combat use of weapons and tactics along with VIP protection details. He’s mentioned a few times that he wanted to get into the civilian aspect of what he does. A non-profit may fit into his ideas. As a previous legislative liaison it may prove advantageous to our cause.
 
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77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
FL-CDSL
Florida Citizens Defense and Safety League.

I’m going to have to start researching a financial supporter/investor for this. Maybe we can work together with Open Carry for the advancement of constitutional open carry and other 2A rights. The safety portion may prove profitable towards donations if we can offer defense classes, gun safety classes, sport shooting classes and any number of other educational opportunities. I know there are a lot of companies out there that offer these types of classes but none are non-profit and involved in 2A and open carry movements. I have contact with a few firearms instructors. I just wonder how much I would want NRA instructors involved.

FL-CDSL - A non-profit, non-partisan, grassroots organization dedicated to advancing the fundamental human right of all Floridians to be safe while maintaining their right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

As long as you DO something I won't disparage it, but what exactly is your problem with Fl Carry? That they're going for licensed open carry first? It is would be difficult in the extreme to get 790.053 repealed without first getting licensed OC. At least next year.
 
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StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
FL-CDSL - A non-profit, non-partisan, grassroots organization dedicated to advancing the fundamental human right of all Floridians to be safe while maintaining their right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Good job copying and pasting!

http://www.floridacarry.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&id=6&Itemid=10

We actual adapted ours from VCDL's but we did it with permission from VCDL leadership.

firedog, I'm not sure why you have a problem with Florida Carry.
Is it that we have only passed one of the three bills we were able to have introduced by others or directly filed this year?
It is the anti-gun laws that we have already been successful in having removed from the books in multiple Florida counties and public facilities?
Is it that we already have lawsuits ready to file this year?

Or is the problem simply that you didn't think of and execute it first?

Regardless of your reasoning for this thread we will continue to take the successes we achieve and learn from our losses when we fall short. Florida Carry continues its mission to protect the right of all law abiding people in Florida to carry defensive weapons, on or about their persons, wherever they have the legal right to be.
 
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firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
As long as you DO something I won't disparage it, but what exactly is your problem with Fl Carry? That they're going for licensed open carry first? It is would be difficult in the extreme to get 790.053 repealed without first getting licensed OC. At least next year.
I have no problem with FL Carry. Let that be clear. I don’t want to openly criticize any pro 2A group.

I'm worried that this Osama thing is going bring the Dems back in power and if Obama is able to bring the fuel prices down before election he is going to be unbeatable. Bush did it with the fuel prices and he was able to get reelected to a second term easily. People wanted to see him get Osama and he didn’t. Now a Democratic President has accomplished what he did not. Even though it wasn’t Obama that did the work it will be a campaign item that is undisputable. If he gets in a second term, katty bar the door on gun rights and their elimination. God help us then.

I think this single issue will not generate the revenue needed to fight the USF. Open carry is not their priority and they have said that openly. Their next legislative session will consist of the Campus Carry issue and they will again sell out “Open Carry” for a victory.
 
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firedog

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
156
Location
FL/NC
Good job copying and pasting!

Regardless of your reasoning for this thread we will continue to take the successes we achieve and learn from our losses when we fall short. Florida Carry continues its mission to protect the right of all law abiding people in Florida to carry defensive weapons, on or about their persons, wherever they have the legal right to be.
Yes I did copy and paste. I had a thought and I borrowed..

I see I have the administrator watching me now and I'm probably one click away from getting my IP banned.
I'll shut up now. This was only a test..... LOL....
 

StogieC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Florida
I see I have the administrator watching me now and I'm probably one click away from getting my IP banned.
I'll shut up now. This was only a test..... LOL....

I'm no admin here. And they don't use the ban hammer much.
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
Their next legislative session will consist of the Campus Carry issue and they will again sell out “Open Carry” for a victory.

This should motivate us even more if true. USF is going after something that most students don't care about and is much more radical, IMO. Radical for the ignorant sheep and the anti gun media. Only Utah preempts public schools, while everybody has OC. Also, given this irrationality over OC, Florida Carry needs to write next year's OC bill so that schools can regulate intentional OC on campus. Else it becomes a sticking point for us.
 
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brboyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
412
Location
Tampa Bay, Florida, USA
OK,I didn't say anything. I just point out that they seem to be splintered. I think it would be more effective to form an organisation that does not "appear" to have a single objective limited only to the carry issue of guns.

We need to form an association without "carry" in its name. Call it the Florida Citizens Defense & Safety League IDK. Safety seems to be a catch word lately and everybody seems to jump on that ban wagon when they hear it.

The word carry (be it open or concealed) points to a single objective that has (pulling %'s out of my butt) less then a 50% support of the Citizens and most likely the same percentage of CCW holders in favor of "open" carry. I don't think you need to defend your organisation I'm just making an observation and relaying some of what I've heard when speaking about carry to groups of friends and others. Someone said that FOC (Florida Open Carry) was about four months old so it's not to late to evaluate it's defeat and it's oversight thinking USF supported you. I think the USF duped you into signing onto their bill. I think they were correct in saying you were not able to get a senator to sign on to (sponsor) a lone bill and your best shot was signing onto their's.I also think it was never their objective to get OC and we now live and learn.

IDK if anybody supports this idea or if you want my participation. I've been labeled as radical by some and timid groups don't want radical people in their association. I may seem radical with my postings in these forums but I assure you all my emails and handshakes have been cordial and professional (as I see them). Strong but polite.

Your obsessive focus on titles, instead of actions, is why you are so pissed off now, re: The Open Carry bill.
 
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