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Department of regulation and licensing misleading me

WisconsinPI

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2010
Messages
81
Location
Green Bay
Below is an email transcript of the entire conversation, i've yet to recieve a reply, obviously read bottom to top.


Then I believe all armored security drivers in the state of wisconsin should be arrested immediatly on sight today. I believe I found the statue correcting your statement.

Private detectives and security can transport loaded and unencased firearms in vehicles, but they cannot carry concealed weapons unless they also happen to be sworn peace officers.

(4) EXCEPTIONS. (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to
any of the following who, in the line of duty, place, possess, transport,
load or discharge a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft or discharge a firearm from or across a highway or
within 50 feet of the center of a roadway:
2. A member of the U.S. armed forces.
3. A member of the national guard.
4. A private security person who meets all of the following
requirements:
a. He or she holds either a private detective license issued
under s. 440.26 (2) (a) 2. or a private security permit issued under
s. 440.26 (5).
b. He or she holds a certificate of proficiency to carry a firearm
issued by the department of regulation and licensing.
c. He or she is performing his or her assigned duties or responsibilities.
d. He or she is wearing a uniform that clearly identifies him
or her as a private security person.
e. His or her firearm is in plain view, as defined by rule by the
department of regulation and licensing





--- On Mon, 9/27/10, Backey, Elaine - DRL <Elaine.Backey@wisconsin.gov> wrote:

> From: Backey, Elaine - DRL <Elaine.Backey@wisconsin.gov>
> Subject: RE: private detective doing uniformed armed security question
> To: "'wiustiffler@yahoo.com'" <wiustiffler@yahoo.com>
> Date: Monday, September 27, 2010, 9:26 AM
> There is no exception.
>
> ELAINE M BACKEY
> DEPT OF REGULATION & LICENSING
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wiustiffler@yahoo.com
> [mailto:wiustiffler@yahoo.com]
>
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 9:25 AM
> To: Backey, Elaine - DRL
> Subject: Re: private detective doing uniformed armed
> security question
>
> I thought there was an exception for place of business with
> consent of owner to conceal, ie when your armed in your car
> its concealed but its place of business private property

> ------Original Message------
> From: Backey, Elaine - DRL
> To: 'wiustiffler@yahoo.com'
> Subject: RE: private detective doing uniformed armed
> security question
> Sent: Sep 27, 2010 7:52 AM
>
> You can only wear it when you are working, when driving in
> your vehicle, it should be in the trunk and disarmed.
>
> ELAINE M BACKEY
> DEPT OF REGULATION & LICENSING

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Prine, Kim - DRL
> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:51 AM
> To: 'Nationwide Solar Products'
> Cc: Backey, Elaine - DRL
> Subject: RE: private detective doing uniformed armed
> security question
>
> I'm referring your question to the person who handles that
> firearm permits.

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nationwide Solar Products [mailto:wiustiffler@yahoo.com]
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 8:27 PM
> To: DRL
> Subject: private detective doing uniformed armed security
> question
>
> Can a uniformed licensed PI doing uniformed armed security
> while on area patrol carry his firearm in holster while
> driving his vehicle? I know a regular citizen cannot, does
> the law require an armed guard to disarm and rearm every
> time he gets in and out of a vehicle?
>
> thank you

>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry(r) smartphone
>
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
232
Location
Green Bay
Why are you asking about this? Stop, I know many people, including a close friend of mine who works for Big Ten Armor. I know its slight, but there is a small chance you could stir up a hornets nest if you keep pestering about this. Just stop, thousands of people have jobs where they carry in a vehicle, are you trying to make them lose their jobs? Are you just jealous they can carry? Knock it off. BTW, all those guys carry openly.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
232
Location
Green Bay
Its not a special privilege. Its their job. You won't be saying that when you go to your bank and find out they have no money to give you. Every single bank relies on either Big Ten, Loomis, Per-Mar, Garda and so on.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
232
Location
Green Bay
(4) EXCEPTIONS. (a) Subsections (2) and (3) do not apply to
any of the following who, in the line of duty, place, possess, transport,
load or discharge a firearm in, on or from a vehicle, motorboat
or aircraft or discharge a firearm from or across a highway or
within 50 feet of the center of a roadway:
2. A member of the U.S. armed forces.
3. A member of the national guard.
4. A private security person who meets all of the following
requirements:

Otherwise Doug thats like saying when I worked for Loomis I broke the law. Hell, some of the pick ups I had was in Courthouses, UW-Stevens Point, or right across from schools. Also, is that saying when I carry my rifle in a military Humvee on public roads I'm commiting a crime.
 

Brass Magnet

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
2,818
Location
Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
Its not a special privilege. Its their job. You won't be saying that when you go to your bank and find out they have no money to give you. Every single bank relies on either Big Ten, Loomis, Per-Mar, Garda and so on.

Really? What is a special privilege if not something one group may do that another can not? If those companies wish to gaurd their interests, why not my company or myself.

Its a special privilege regardless of whether or not its their job...
 

Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
Your exceptions are to § 167.31 safe transport laws and NOT to the prohibition on carrying a concealed dangerous weapon in § 941.23.

Military duties are typically excepted.

Yes, Loomis is probably breaking the law with a wink and a nod from the cops, knowing that they'll need a different job some day. Again, participants in the judicial system enjoy discretion - even we/you can decide to abide the law or not.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
232
Location
Green Bay
Alright, when put like that yes it is special. They don't carry those firearms to guard the money, they are carried to protect ourselves if we are attacked. If someone simply tries to take the money, we are supposed to let them have it.
 

Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
Like I said though, those sidearms aren't concealed, they are openly carried on the hip.
In a vehicle and indiscernible from ordinary observation from outside is concealed and illegal.

§ 941.23 Annotations of case law said:
A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation
by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from
view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this
section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
232
Location
Green Bay
Guess what? We could argue this all day. It won't change a thing. Guys are carrying right now. Small routes on run on Saturday. Then come Monday, all of them will go back to US Bank, the courthouses and what have you. The guys at the Nuclear Plant will continue to carry the Silverado that patrols the perimeter of the plant.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
232
Location
Green Bay
Should we call batman? The police will never enforce this one. It would be huge and would go nationwide, this happens all over the country. Some of these places are unionized. Bottom line, it'll never be enforced.
 

trailblazer2003

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
211
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, ,
Nothing is being "argued". The law is being violated.

Yes, maybe, but which supersedes? 167.31 sec 4 lays out the facts for private security carry, appearing to make it legal. 941.23 says concealed carry is illegal.

Just like your earlier video describing the conflict of laws for casing/uncasing guns and vehicles. One law says this, the other says you can't. Seems the state subscribes to 167.31 when dealing with the issue.
 
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Interceptor_Knight

Regular Member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
2,851
Location
Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
There is no law being "violated". To claim so is just being silly and argumentative for the sake of controversy.
They have a license to have a loaded holstered handgun in a vehicle.
His or her firearm is in plain view, as defined by rule by the department of regulation and licensing.
and plain view is interpreted differently for a security guard. This double standard should be eliminated. The issue is not holding them to a lower standard, it is holding us to a higher standard of "plain view".
RL 34.011 Conditions relating to transporting a
loaded firearm in a vehicle. No owner or employee of an
agency may transport a loaded firearm in a vehicle, unless all of
the following apply:
(1) The firearm is in plain view. In this section “in plain view”
means it is visible from ordinary observation to a person outside
the vehicle.
Note: A firearm located in a glove compartment, in a briefcase, under a seat of a
vehicle, or covered by the clothing of an occupant, is not “in plain view.”

(2) If the firearm is a handgun, the owner or employee transports
the firearm in a holster which is in plain view.
 
Last edited:

otter

New member
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
25
Location
West Bend, Wisconsin, USA
There is no law being "violated". To claim so is just being silly and argumentative for the sake of controversy.
They have a license to have a loaded holstered handgun in a vehicle. and plain view is interpreted differently for a security guard. This double standard should be eliminated. The issue is not holding them to a lower standard, it is holding us to a higher standard of "plain view".

Exactly.

Now, could a case be made that state statute (specifically, 941.23) and the DRL rules are in conflict? Absolutely.

In the past, I worked for 2 armored car companies. At both, I had pickups in government buildings, and even a school. I didn't disarm when I went into these buildings. In fact, I made a pickup every day at the Racine PD! Not once did I ever have an issue. The crux of the problem is that some are more equal than others in this state.

P.S. In WI, armored car personnel are not even required to have a security license. One company I worked for licensed everyone, the other didn't bother. So, at the one that didn't license us, we carried in vehicles and in other prohibited areas, and had no special state permission to do so. Just by virtue of being employed at an armored car company, we were able to carry anywhere we had to. Is that within the letter of the law? Nope. Are any armored car guards going to get arrested over it? Nope.
 
Last edited:

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
There's no violation of any statutes by licensed armed security personnel as long as they do it by the book. The statutes allow licensed private detectives and security personnel to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle provided they stay within the rules of the WI Department of Regulation and Licensing. They cannot carry concealed weapons, but weapons in vehicles are not considered concealed provided they follow these rules:

RL 34.011 Conditions relating to transporting a
loaded firearm in a vehicle. No owner or employee of an
agency may transport a loaded firearm in a vehicle, unless all of
the following apply:
(1) The firearm is in plain view. In this section “in plain view”
means it is visible from ordinary observation to a person outside
the vehicle.
Note: A firearm located in a glove compartment, in a briefcase, under a seat of a
vehicle, or covered by the clothing of an occupant, is not “in plain view.”
(2) If the firearm is a handgun, the owner or employee transports
the firearm in a holster which is in plain view.
(3) If the firearm is other than a handgun, the owner or
employee transports the firearm in a device inside the vehicle
which locks the firearm in position and prevents an unauthorized
person from removing the firearm from the locking device and
which is in plain view.
(4) The owner or employee complies with the requirements in
s. RL 34.01.
 
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