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Virginia Gun Deaths Outpace Motor Vehicle Deaths, Anti Group Claims

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
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They are getting their data from the CDC's WISQARS system for 2009, and using that data to claim that there needs to be federal consumer safety regulation of firearms.

Here's the problem: While, on the face of it, they are right that there were more firearm deaths than motor vehicle deaths, their proposed solution wouldn't help that in any significant fashion.

Let's look at the breakdown of the data:

Firearm-related deaths
Total: 836
Unintentional: 13
Homicide: 272
Legal Intervention: 16
Suicide: 527
Undetermined: 0

Motor Vehicle-related deaths
Total: 827
Unintentional: 826
Homicide: 0
Legal Intervention: undefined
Suicide: 0
Undetermined: 0

I don't know why there is a 1-death discrepancy between the reported total motor vehicle deaths and the sum of all the listed categories.

This breakdown (which you can do for yourself) shows how flawed their "study" is, and how it is unrelated to their conclusions. First of all, if you remove the "Legal Intervention" deaths (as they are presumably in the public interest, being ruled justified shootings by police officers), the number of firearm deaths immediately drops below the number of motor vehicle deaths. However, the number is still not properly comparable.

For their conclusion (that federal consumer product safety regulations should apply to firearms) to hold up, we need to look only at the unintentional deaths, as consumer product safety regulations don't cover intentional uses of products. In that, we find a massive difference (13 compared to 826). Moreover, most of those deaths are not attributable to flaws in the product itself, but to operator errors. (Admittedly, the same would hold true for motor vehicles; most accidents are caused by operator error, not product safety issues.)

Since they released this report yesterday, I expect we'll be hearing more about it. I just wanted to preemptively provide the raw data that they used so we all have the data to refute the inevitable claims.
 
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chammer

Regular Member
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
47
Location
Newport News, VA
For their conclusion (that federal consumer product safety regulations should apply to firearms) to hold up, we need to look only at the unintentional deaths, as consumer product safety regulations don't cover intentional uses of products. In that, we find a massive difference (13 compared to 826).

I try and keep out of politics, but I agree with that statement. I believe it may be common to count homocides because we all know that laws prevent crimes so more are always needed (/sarcasm). However, like suicides, a person determined to murder another person (or themselves in suicide cases) will always find a method to do so. There will never be a law to prevent either from occuring much to their chagrin. I think it's pretty rare a person hops in a vehicle with the intention of causing a massive pile up and/or mass murder via vehicular manslaughter or whatever, so comparing apples to apples would be comparing accidents to accidents. In that regard, their argument fails basic logic and/or common sense.
 

TFred

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Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
These guys (VPC) are so pathetic, it's laughable - except the general population is THAT gullible, so it's not. They're trying to make a safety point when their own numbers show that virtually ALL car deaths are unintentional, while only 13 out of 836 gun deaths are. The rest, whatever the unfortunate reasons may be, were not unintentional, so not safety related at all.

Following this logic, we should examine the method of all suicides and conduct safety studies on the means used... It seems to me that most suicides are overdoses or hanging, maybe CO poisoning... how do you make legitimate drugs or household items such as belts or ropes "safe?" Such money would be much better spent on mental health issues, not trying to eliminate firearms.

We need to keep our eyes out for Virginia news media to pick this up since Virginia is one of the ten states in the study. Coherent and well thought out comments that respond the articles will go a long way to dispel this rubbish.

TFred
 

The Wolfhound

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
728
Location
Henrico, Virginia, USA
What a bunch of loons!

Comparing the deliberate behavior of shooting (murders and suicides) to the unplanned incidence of crashes is low even for these bottom feeders. Only accidental shootings vs crashes are an actual comparative match.
 

paramedic70002

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
1,440
Location
Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
I believe that Congress has prohibited the CPSC from regulating firearms, I guess that is what all the fuss is about. I'd love to see how they would make a product LESS dangerous that by design is lethal when used properly.

One BIG reason why the stats fall as they do, is the engineering of cars to make them MORE SAFE as they are NOT INTENDED to be lethal.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
The Violence Policy Center is headed up by Josh Sugarmann, and is headquartered in Washington DC.

Josh Sugarmann has a Class 03 Federal Firearms License (dealer).

His FFL Number 1-54-000-01-8C-00725.

HE has had this license for decades, and it is fraudulent and felonious. BATFE requires that Class 03 FFLs meet certain requirements, one of which is that you must operate your dealership in a location that is zoned for firearms sales.

VPC's HQ is not zoned as such, therefore he falsified his applications and renewal forms.

Josh Sugarmann is a serial compulsive liar, and has committed multiple federal offenses in obtaining and renewing his FFL. He should be in prison.

If Josh Sugarmann told me the sky was blue, I would go outside to check...
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Well I certainly think Josh has a point. Congress should pass a law making it illegal to commit suicide with a firearm. That'll take the skew out of the numbers.
 

eamelhorn

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
143
Location
ripley wv
The last man to hang for a crime in WV was John Morgan, Dec. 1897, he is buried within cite of my home. He killed Pfost/Green family with an axe just a few miles up the road. No gun needed. The problem with studies is the way they are studied, I.E. the mind set you have to inturpet the numbers before you even start the study. Also how many homocides were commited in self defence, weather homicide is committed with malice or in self defence it is still "HOMICIDE"
 
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user

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Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
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Location
Northern Piedmont
limiting stochastic deaths

I agree that something needs to be done. First, the big preventable number is homicide, and the answer to that is more guns and better training for the just-plain-folks, so they can defend themselves against personal attacks. And secondly, effective speed limit enforcement, because most people don't realize that the function of a speed limit is not to control speed but stopping distance in an area determined by engineering studies to require that vehicles be able to stop within a certain distance (on average).
 

roscoe13

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,134
Location
Catlett, Virginia, USA
And secondly, effective speed limit enforcement, because most people don't realize that the function of a speed limit is not to control speed but stopping distance in an area determined by engineering studies to require that vehicles be able to stop within a certain distance (on average).

That's how it's SUPPOSED to work. Unfortunately, all to often it's based more on the influence of some politically connected individuals that don't want people driving past their house "too fast"...

Roscoe
 

papa bear

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Jul 25, 2010
Messages
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Location
mayberry, nc
well the obvious conclusion is to ban all cars, where is the Coalition Against Car Violence


i think the OP was right in the fact that there is no product liability, it is operators error
 

TFred

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Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
I agree that something needs to be done. First, the big preventable number is homicide, and the answer to that is more guns and better training for the just-plain-folks, so they can defend themselves against personal attacks. And secondly, effective speed limit enforcement, because most people don't realize that the function of a speed limit is not to control speed but stopping distance in an area determined by engineering studies to require that vehicles be able to stop within a certain distance (on average).
So if you buy a really sporty car with great brakes... you should be able to speed... as long as you can stop in that certain distance... :)

TFred
 

grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
well the obvious conclusion is to ban all cars, where is the Coalition Against Car Violence


i think the OP was right in the fact that there is no product liability, it is operators error

I wouldn't say that there should be no product liability (for either firearms or automobiles). To use a recent example, if a firearm has a design flaw that allows it to fire without the trigger being pulled, I would call that a product liability issue. (Yes, I know that you should always practice muzzle control, but that doesn't necessarily prevent injuries from ricochets or property damage from a discharge.) Similarly, if your car has a design flaw that causes the brakes to fail, it is also a product liability issue.

However, I would say that the vast majority of accidental deaths from both firearms and automobiles are caused by operator errors, rather than product liability issues. Is it 100%? No, but probably in the high 90s (on the close order of 98 or 99%).
 

half_life1052

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
270
Location
Austin, TX
Link

They are getting their data from the CDC's WISQARS system for 2009, and using that data to claim that there needs to be federal consumer safety regulation of firearms.

Here's the problem: While, on the face of it, they are right that there were more firearm deaths than motor vehicle deaths, their proposed solution wouldn't help that in any significant fashion.

Let's look at the breakdown of the data:

Firearm-related deaths
Total: 836
Unintentional: 13
Homicide: 272
Legal Intervention: 16
Suicide: 527
Undetermined: 0

Motor Vehicle-related deaths
Total: 827
Unintentional: 826
Homicide: 0
Legal Intervention: undefined
Suicide: 0
Undetermined: 0

I don't know why there is a 1-death discrepancy between the reported total motor vehicle deaths and the sum of all the listed categories.

This breakdown (which you can do for yourself) shows how flawed their "study" is, and how it is unrelated to their conclusions. First of all, if you remove the "Legal Intervention" deaths (as they are presumably in the public interest, being ruled justified shootings by police officers), the number of firearm deaths immediately drops below the number of motor vehicle deaths. However, the number is still not properly comparable.

For their conclusion (that federal consumer product safety regulations should apply to firearms) to hold up, we need to look only at the unintentional deaths, as consumer product safety regulations don't cover intentional uses of products. In that, we find a massive difference (13 compared to 826). Moreover, most of those deaths are not attributable to flaws in the product itself, but to operator errors. (Admittedly, the same would hold true for motor vehicles; most accidents are caused by operator error, not product safety issues.)

Since they released this report yesterday, I expect we'll be hearing more about it. I just wanted to preemptively provide the raw data that they used so we all have the data to refute the inevitable claims.

I have a problem with the figures. According to other sources we have death rates in the thousands in the teen-aged driver segment. Hell, we have had 22 fatal accidents in the Lyncburg area in the last few months. How are these figures derived? Are they expressed in fatalities per 100k people?
 

papa bear

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,222
Location
mayberry, nc
I wouldn't say that there should be no product liability (for either firearms or automobiles). To use a recent example, if a firearm has a design flaw that allows it to fire without the trigger being pulled, I would call that a product liability issue. (Yes, I know that you should always practice muzzle control, but that doesn't necessarily prevent injuries from ricochets or property damage from a discharge.) Similarly, if your car has a design flaw that causes the brakes to fail, it is also a product liability issue.

However, I would say that the vast majority of accidental deaths from both firearms and automobiles are caused by operator errors, rather than product liability issues. Is it 100%? No, but probably in the high 90s (on the close order of 98 or 99%).

agreed, even with your example. it still is human error

you must take hold of the firearm
you must not clean it very well
you must put a round in the chamber
and last but not least, you must have it pointing toward someone
 

Docgmt

Regular Member
Joined
May 29, 2011
Messages
49
Location
Central VA
Apples & Oranges

I have a number of issues, having been a Paramedic for 20 years I saw many a suicides by car. They are almost never reported as such unless the driver leaves a note on the front seat, it is hard to prove. Those who drink and drive should also be placed in a separate category as the use of drugs or alcohol and then driving is an intentional act. Just as homicides are an intentional act by a criminal and a misuse of the gun, knife, ax, or other object.

All they did with this study is pick their apple and then go hunting for an orange the same size. How many people died from heart attacks, cancer etc. The must have apart time job with the federal bureau of useless information.
 
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grylnsmn

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
620
Location
Pacific Northwest
agreed, even with your example. it still is human error

you must take hold of the firearm
you must not clean it very well
you must put a round in the chamber
and last but not least, you must have it pointing toward someone
That's why I said "Yes, I know that you should always practice muzzle control, but that doesn't necessarily prevent injuries from ricochets or property damage from a discharge."

A defect that allows the firearm to go off without the trigger being pulled is still a defect in the firearm. Yes, it can be exacerbated by human error, but that doesn't change the underlying defect that allowed the gun to go off.
 
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