OC encounter OOB PD.

Venator · May 27, 2011

carry for myself said:
No. was totally my CHOICE to give him my ID. my CHOICE to even stop walking, or admit he was there. however i was on the clock , at work *which chooses* to allow to me to carry at work, and chooses even more to allow me to do it openly.

i could have Chosen to ignore him, and chosen to pick a battle and not show ID. he asked, did not demand. as same as i allowed and did not refuse.

my reasoning was i was at work, and choosing a battle at work would have been bad for my job. now if he had demanded ID and FORCEFULLY stopped me, i would have said no, as i have many times.

OC is legal but we all know it is a battle and an UP HILL one......we all choose our own battles, i chose to not battle and to cooperate with the soul purpose of gaining LEO relations and keeping my job.

he was doing his job, i was respecting mine. that simple. i hold no anger, or judgement on him for doing what he did. as he held no judgement on me for my choice to carry.

if we fight every cop that stops us they will never respect us, and if every citizen sees us arguing and disrespecting officers....they will all fear us.

chose your battles. and only put up a fight when needed.

I never said be rude, many people think that when it''s suggested to not show ID that it somehow rude. I can smile and be as sweet and nice as your LEO was to you.

The point is as long as every CITIZEN does what the LEO's want us to do every-time they ask, then their power grows and dare I say they become emboldened, and the CITIZENS rights diminish.

And to your bolded comment above. If every cop WOULDN'T stop a CITIZEN lawfully going about their business we wouldn't have to show anything and the whole discussion becomes moot.

Claytron · May 27, 2011

My question to the people who prefer to show their ID to the cop when hes nice is this-

What happens if they ALL start acting nice? In the end they are just doing their job and the niceties are just tactics, means to the same end. If you give a "nice cop" your ID and something comes up on his screen that he uses to hassle you it doesnt help you out any that the situation went nice up until this point, he still got what he wanted from you.

Im really surprised to hear you say you would give your ID up Boyscout..... didnt you tell a story about how you willingly provided ID and then ended up needing to go to court over the situation and ended up with lawyer fees and termination from your job?

In my opinion it doesnt really matter what their demeanor is, its not about them its about US and OUR rights

cllmecrazy · May 27, 2011

And yet if every cop discontinued to stop people to question them how many actual criminals may get by? Like I said earlier...sooner or later it will happen...some smart gang kid will get the idea to open carry and know his rights inside out and an officer will see him, nod and smile knowing it's perfectly legal to open carry...and the kid will go shoot someone. Has it happened? Doubt it. Could it? Yep. I'd prefer those cops who know it's legal and will ask just to get gauge a reaction. politely tell him no or politely tell him yes...but I'd rather him ask the OC guy who starts to sweat and fumble and become aware of this guy rather than just let him walk on by. Let them chit chat, let them ask, let them say 'have a nice day' when you politely refuse them. I see no harm in that situation.

sharkey · May 27, 2011

cllmecrazy said:
And yet if every cop discontinued to stop people to question them how many actual criminals may get by? Like I said earlier...sooner or later it will happen...some smart gang kid will get the idea to open carry and know his rights inside out and an officer will see him, nod and smile knowing it's perfectly legal to open carry...and the kid will go shoot someone. Has it happened? Doubt it. Could it? Yep. I'd prefer those cops who know it's legal and will ask just to get gauge a reaction. politely tell him no or politely tell him yes...but I'd rather him ask the OC guy who starts to sweat and fumble and become aware of this guy rather than just let him walk on by. Let them chit chat, let them ask, let them say 'have a nice day' when you politely refuse them. I see no harm in that situation.

If the smart kid gang member knows his rights inside and out the cop asking will be of no avail because he'll ............ wait for it .......... just assert his rights and not show ID to the cops.

Did I miss something or was your example pointless and without merit?

cllmecrazy · May 28, 2011

It was an example of which I'd say you missed the point. I'll word it without an example. My opinion is that I feel safer knowing that a cop is paying attention and starting friendly conversation.

You don't know his motive for asking for ID, I don't know his motive. Only he does. Should he have asked? No? Well, does that then mean that if someone who is open carrying shoots someone or something out of anger it is perfectly acceptable that the cop who walked by him minutes before just nodded or would some of us silently wonder why on earth that cop didn't stop to talk to him even just to ask what firearm he had on today. IF cops started ignoring all of us...not just the good guys would OC anymore.

This isn't one sided. When one side stops caring and gives way there are consequences. This is give and take. Not all take and not all give. We can't stop giving cops a hard time for forcing us to give ID but cops shouldn't stop at least asking either. I'd prefer they care enough to ask. That's what I'm trying to say. I believe every opinion has merit.

cllmecrazy · May 28, 2011

NavyLT said:
What's wrong with cops stopping and investigating people who are acting suspicious? Buying groceries in a grocery store is not suspicious activity.... last time I checked, that what people do in grocery stores. I would prefer that cops spend their time and our tax dollars (their salaries) investigating crimes...not people buying groceries in grocery stores.

I would prefer they spend their time investigating crimes, but there isn't always a crime. We're paying them to drive around the block to deter crime. So if they're around doing nothing anyway...I'd rather have a chat with them and talk about what I'm carrying and my right to carry rather than have them chit chatting with each other about the weather over coffee in a random parking lot.

sharkey · May 28, 2011

Well, I'm glad you feel safer. Some people feel violated, harassed or annoyed.

Would you feel safer if the police chatted up every person they saw and asked them where they're going, you know, just to be safe?

cllmecrazy said:
It was an example of which I'd say you missed the point. I'll word it without an example. My opinion is that I feel safer knowing that a cop is paying attention and starting friendly conversation.

You don't know his motive for asking for ID, I don't know his motive. Only he does. Should he have asked? No? Well, does that then mean that if someone who is open carrying shoots someone or something out of anger it is perfectly acceptable that the cop who walked by him minutes before just nodded or would some of us silently wonder why on earth that cop didn't stop to talk to him even just to ask what firearm he had on today. IF cops started ignoring all of us...not just the good guys would OC anymore.

This isn't one sided. When one side stops caring and gives way there are consequences. This is give and take. Not all take and not all give. We can't stop giving cops a hard time for forcing us to give ID but cops shouldn't stop at least asking either. I'd prefer they care enough to ask. That's what I'm trying to say. I believe every opinion has merit.

cllmecrazy · May 28, 2011

sharkey said:
Well, I'm glad you feel safer. Some people feel violated, harassed or annoyed.

Would you feel safer if the police chatted up every person they saw and asked them where they're going, you know, just to be safe?

I think it depends on your attitude going in. I don't see why the situation that started this thread would make someone feel harassed, honestly. Other situations that are in other threads, sure, but I'm not talking about those examples. I don't see the point in fighting with someone being friendly. They have a choice, we have a choice. Ask for ID or not. Say yes or not. End of story. Choices. We each make our own and to each his/her own.

Rattrapper · May 28, 2011

To Navy Lt.

Everything or anything a police officer does or how they do it YOU HAVE PROBLEM WITH It.

So if you are or were a Naval Officer, then you missed the part on TACT and DIPLOMACY, as well as Salesmanship.
I guess that is why the navy has chiefs, as the officers never learn how to converse with anyone that isn't one of them.(with the exception of the Mustangs)
Every police encounter can be or maybe an "Investigation". So the question of a well rounded "Street Cop" is how do I get someone to talk to me and tell me what I want to know "willingly". The Answer is: You learn how to talk to people.

Rattrapper · May 28, 2011

sharkey said:
Well, I'm glad you feel safer. Some people feel violated, harassed or annoyed.

Would you feel safer if the police chatted up every person they saw and asked them where they're going, you know, just to be safe?

You seem to forget that is how the old beat cop did business, He talked to "Everyone" He got to know "Everyone" , when something happen, he know who was the person that was always looking out the window. That is police work, you, Talk to People. It is also learning how to talk to people. I remember working with some of the older guys and they had the gift of being able talk a hungry dog off a bone.

shanebelanger · May 28, 2011

cllmecrazy said:
And yet if every cop discontinued to stop people to question them how many actual criminals may get by? Like I said earlier...sooner or later it will happen...some smart gang kid will get the idea to open carry and know his rights inside out and an officer will see him, nod and smile knowing it's perfectly legal to open carry...and the kid will go shoot someone. Has it happened? Doubt it. Could it? Yep. I'd prefer those cops who know it's legal and will ask just to get gauge a reaction. politely tell him no or politely tell him yes...but I'd rather him ask the OC guy who starts to sweat and fumble and become aware of this guy rather than just let him walk on by. Let them chit chat, let them ask, let them say 'have a nice day' when you politely refuse them. I see no harm in that situation.

You are incorrect sir. Even back during the Wild West that everyone LOVES to compare OC to, when literally nearly everyone carried openly and the law enforcement didn't bat an eye, criminals STILL carried concealed because they thought that it made them less suspicious.

Grapeshot · May 28, 2011

cllmecrazy said:
You don't know his motive for asking for ID, I don't know his motive. Only he does. Should he have asked? No? Well, does that then mean that if someone who is open carrying shoots someone or something out of anger it is perfectly acceptable that the cop who walked by him minutes before just nodded or would some of us silently wonder why on earth that cop didn't stop to talk to him even just to ask what firearm he had on today. IF cops started ignoring all of us...not just the good guys would OC anymore.

This isn't one sided. When one side stops caring and gives way there are consequences. This is give and take. Not all take and not all give. We can't stop giving cops a hard time for forcing us to give ID but cops shouldn't stop at least asking either. I'd prefer they care enough to ask. That's what I'm trying to say. I believe every opinion has merit.

The disconnect in your situation where a LEO does not investigate the OCer and the OCer then shoots someone is that the deciding factor in whether or not the LEO should check out the man is singularly the gun - you extrapolate the gun as potentially bad.

Guns do not show intent. Guns do not have moral values or nefarious plans. The ownership of neither custom cars nor guns should be cause for an investigative stop, consensual or otherwise.

What should the criteria be? Quite simply the person's actions, his behavior, his conduct. Not that his hat was worn backwards or his pants halfway to his knees or whether he has numerous tattoos. Most assuredly the standard for "checking the man" should not be that a legally OCd a gun was on his hip.

Now I don't mind the friendly approach if he talks about the weather, the traffic or even if he comments that my gun is attractive. But the very second that it moves to my ID, permit, or anything remotely in that category - I am done, it is over, finis.

MKEgal · May 28, 2011

cllmecrazy said:
sooner or later it will happen... some smart gang kid will get the idea to open carry and know his rights inside out and an officer will see him, nod and smile knowing it's perfectly legal to open carry... and the kid will go shoot someone.

The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime.
Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489

Also see the PDF of an FBI report from AUG06, saying that criminals don't OC & practically never use holsters. IIRC, that's in chapter 4.
Seeing a "gang kid", with the falling-off-the-butt pants [advertising that he likes anal sex], tear tattoos, "colors", and other signs of being involved in crime, carrying a pistol, would give lots of RAS for that officer to detain & investigate.

Then again, consider the criminals taking advantage of the recent IL SC ruling that citizens may not resist illegal entry into their homes by police. Within a week of that ruling, there were several home invasions where the criminals simply yelled "police!".
The more our rights are restricted, the better it is for criminals.

cllmecrazy said:
if someone who is open carrying shoots someone or something out of anger it is perfectly acceptable that the cop who walked by him minutes before just nodded or would some of us silently wonder why on earth that cop didn't stop to talk to him

If there's no RAS of a crime, the officer can't detain the citizen.
So yes, in your scenario, the cop did nothing wrong, unless he's a mind reader like the guy on Heros, so he'd know that the person intended to kill.
And just talking with him probably wouldn't stop him.

Although he might be stupid enough to admit his plans, as the whacko from Marshfield, WI did the other night. He had an ND in his hotel room, while loading his pistol, planning to go to an abortion clinic & murder people.
So he went to the desk to check if anyone was in the room across the hall (where his bullet went through the door), in case they might be hurt.
When the police arrived to talk with him about it, apparently he was too stupid (or righteous) to keep his mouth shut, so told them of his plans. Now, of course, he's in jail.

cllmecrazy said:
I don't see why the situation that started this thread would make someone feel harassed

The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime.
Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489

If you were walking down the street and a cop asked to see your ID, would you feel harassed?
How about if you were going into/out of church?
Or just wearing or carrying a religious symbol?
How about if you were writing a letter to your Congressman?
Or publishing a comment here?
What if it happened several times a day? Would you start to feel harassed then?

If you're not doing anything they can reasonably claim looks like a crime, and exercising your civil right to bear arms doesn't cut it, then they can't bother you.

I have no problem with a friendly chat at the coffee shop. But when they start being more nosy than any other citizen, or trying to coerce me to do something, I start taking names & writing letters.

Claytron · May 28, 2011

MKEgal said:
The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime.
Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489

Also see the PDF of an FBI report from AUG06, saying that criminals don't OC & practically never use holsters. IIRC, that's in chapter 4.
Seeing a "gang kid", with the falling-off-the-butt pants [advertising that he likes anal sex], tear tattoos, "colors", and other signs of being involved in crime, carrying a pistol, would give lots of RAS for that officer to detain & investigate.

Then again, consider the criminals taking advantage of the recent IL SC ruling that citizens may not resist illegal entry into their homes by police. Within a week of that ruling, there were several home invasions where the criminals simply yelled "police!".
The more our rights are restricted, the better it is for criminals.

If there's no RAS of a crime, the officer can't detain the citizen.
So yes, in your scenario, the cop did nothing wrong, unless he's a mind reader like the guy on Heros, so he'd know that the person intended to kill.
And just talking with him probably wouldn't stop him.

Although he might be stupid enough to admit his plans, as the whacko from Marshfield, WI did the other night. He had an ND in his hotel room, while loading his pistol, planning to go to an abortion clinic & murder people.
So he went to the desk to check if anyone was in the room across the hall (where his bullet went through the door), in case they might be hurt.
When the police arrived to talk with him about it, apparently he was too stupid (or righteous) to keep his mouth shut, so told them of his plans. Now, of course, he's in jail.

The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime.
Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489

If you were walking down the street and a cop asked to see your ID, would you feel harassed?
How about if you were going into/out of church?
Or just wearing or carrying a religious symbol?
How about if you were writing a letter to your Congressman?
Or publishing a comment here?
What if it happened several times a day? Would you start to feel harassed then?

If you're not doing anything they can reasonably claim looks like a crime, and exercising your civil right to bear arms doesn't cut it, then they can't bother you.

I have no problem with a friendly chat at the coffee shop. But when they start being more nosy than any other citizen, or trying to coerce me to do something, I start taking names & writing letters.

lol.... Wheres this anal sex nonsense from? Some people wear their pants too low like fools, nothing sexual about it its just a style.

I also think your comments about "teat tattoos" and "gang colors" are a bit biased... I personally know someone who has multiple tear tattoos under his eyes from, yes, being in jail but its not as if they represent people theyve killed or something like that, he explained to me that they are for every year he had to spend away from his family and seeing them everyday helps remind him what he loses if he doesnt watch his step.

Not to get too personal but this guy is not a "career criminal" who robbed banks or killed people, he was sent to prison for beating up his daughters violent boyfriend. Hes a great guy and a fantastic father, regardless of his past mistakes. Last time i saw him he had just finished his grandsons christmas gift, a beautiful handmade rocking horse.

The point im trying to make is an officer would have no reason to stop him but from what you say he deserves to be stopped just by his appearance and lets face it thats just plain discrimination.

cllmecrazy · May 28, 2011

MKEgal said:
The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime.
Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489

Also see the PDF of an FBI report from AUG06, saying that criminals don't OC & practically never use holsters. IIRC, that's in chapter 4.
Seeing a "gang kid", with the falling-off-the-butt pants [advertising that he likes anal sex], tear tattoos, "colors", and other signs of being involved in crime, carrying a pistol, would give lots of RAS for that officer to detain & investigate.

Then again, consider the criminals taking advantage of the recent IL SC ruling that citizens may not resist illegal entry into their homes by police. Within a week of that ruling, there were several home invasions where the criminals simply yelled "police!".
The more our rights are restricted, the better it is for criminals.

If there's no RAS of a crime, the officer can't detain the citizen.
So yes, in your scenario, the cop did nothing wrong, unless he's a mind reader like the guy on Heros, so he'd know that the person intended to kill.
And just talking with him probably wouldn't stop him.

Although he might be stupid enough to admit his plans, as the whacko from Marshfield, WI did the other night. He had an ND in his hotel room, while loading his pistol, planning to go to an abortion clinic & murder people.
So he went to the desk to check if anyone was in the room across the hall (where his bullet went through the door), in case they might be hurt.
When the police arrived to talk with him about it, apparently he was too stupid (or righteous) to keep his mouth shut, so told them of his plans. Now, of course, he's in jail.

The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime.
Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489

If you were walking down the street and a cop asked to see your ID, would you feel harassed?
How about if you were going into/out of church?
Or just wearing or carrying a religious symbol?
How about if you were writing a letter to your Congressman?
Or publishing a comment here?
What if it happened several times a day? Would you start to feel harassed then?

If you're not doing anything they can reasonably claim looks like a crime, and exercising your civil right to bear arms doesn't cut it, then they can't bother you.

I have no problem with a friendly chat at the coffee shop. But when they start being more nosy than any other citizen, or trying to coerce me to do something, I start taking names & writing letters.

I definitely see your point on that last one. It actually opened by eyes a bit. I'm actually going to say 'thank you' for that one.

OC encounter OOB PD.

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter

Claytron

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cllmecrazy

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sharkey

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cllmecrazy

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cllmecrazy

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sharkey

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cllmecrazy

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Rattrapper

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Rattrapper

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shanebelanger

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Grapeshot

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MKEgal

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Claytron

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cllmecrazy

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