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Officer finally charged with 2nd Degree Murder

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Why isn't the whole department on obstruction and aiding and abetting charges?

Rotten f'in barrel.

One step at a time, grasshopper.

Although the odds are neither the obstruction nor the aiding/abetting charges would meet the basic elements necessary to prove the crime(s).

http://www.ocalynchburg.com/Jury Instructions/Index of Instructions.htm#_Accomplices

22.5 et seq. for obstruction
and
2 for accomplices

While I share your frustration, until the General Assembly changes the law to include the sorts of circumstances you suggest there just is not going to be any crime that they can be charged with. OTOH, the family, heirs, and/or assigns can come back with a new civil rights violation (either state or federal, or even one following the other) for the emotional trauma and money expended in "forcing" the issue against the stalling tactics of the FCPD.

stay safe.
 

Grapeshot

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Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
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Valhalla
Acceptable thread

Should I be the one to ask what this thread has to do with open carry in Virginia, or was someone else going to do that? :)

LEA/LEO, guns, legal aspects and ramifications of interest to all 2A advocates in the state..........including OCers.

Not verboten to have threads and discussions similar to this, where state appropriate.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
One step at a time, grasshopper.

Although the odds are neither the obstruction nor the aiding/abetting charges would meet the basic elements necessary to prove the crime(s).

http://www.ocalynchburg.com/Jury Instructions/Index of Instructions.htm#_Accomplices

22.5 et seq. for obstruction
and
2 for accomplices

While I share your frustration, until the General Assembly changes the law to include the sorts of circumstances you suggest there just is not going to be any crime that they can be charged with. OTOH, the family, heirs, and/or assigns can come back with a new civil rights violation (either state or federal, or even one following the other) for the emotional trauma and money expended in "forcing" the issue against the stalling tactics of the FCPD.

stay safe.

Thanks for the links.

The mundanes would not have gotten away with helping a murderer and refusing to give his name up.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
The mundanes would not have gotten away with helping a murderer and refusing to give his name up.

Just to be clear, there is a material and legal difference between refusing to give information to the media or a victim's survivors, and refusing to give information to an investigating agency. As slow as the pace may have been, does anyone really doubt that the prosecutor, internal affairs, and whatever other government agencies were investigating did not have the officer's name and other information readily available?

Put into another context, should an LAC shoot some violent gang-banger would you really expect that LAC, his friends, or family to give up his name, location, or other information to the media or the fellow "club members" of the deceased gang-banger? Witnesses would be expected to cooperate with the police and other investigators.

In a case involving a government employee, we might legitimately argue for greater transparency with the media/public than might be demanded of a private citizen. On the flip side, given how officers involved in perfectly legitimate (if arguably preventable) self-defense shootings have faced personal threats and bounties, it is easy to understand why fellow officers would adopt a position of not releasing details to the public until required to do so.

Let us also remember that under our Constitution, it is the accused (not the victim or survivors) who is constitutionally entitled to a speedy trial. (I know that doesn't technically include a speedy indictment, but I think the general principle holds about who has the real burden if justice is delayed in a criminal case.) Assuming the outcome of the trial is just, then justice is served even if it took longer to obtain than if the defendant had been a private citizen rather than a government employee. Except to the extent that delays are the result of attempts to protect the defendant from the claims of the criminal justice system, rather than something less malicious, I don't see much to be concerned with over a slow pace. I'd rather a case be properly made slowly, than brought to trial in haste. That remains true whether it is "obvious" to the public that it was bad shoot, or whether it appears to be a legit case of justified use of force.

Charles
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Just to be clear, there is a material and legal difference between refusing to give information to the media or a victim's survivors, and refusing to give information to an investigating agency. As slow as the pace may have been, does anyone really doubt that the prosecutor, internal affairs, and whatever other government agencies were investigating did not have the officer's name and other information readily available?

Put into another context, should an LAC shoot some violent gang-banger would you really expect that LAC, his friends, or family to give up his name, location, or other information to the media or the fellow "club members" of the deceased gang-banger? Witnesses would be expected to cooperate with the police and other investigators.

In a case involving a government employee, we might legitimately argue for greater transparency with the media/public than might be demanded of a private citizen. On the flip side, given how officers involved in perfectly legitimate (if arguably preventable) self-defense shootings have faced personal threats and bounties, it is easy to understand why fellow officers would adopt a position of not releasing details to the public until required to do so.

Let us also remember that under our Constitution, it is the accused (not the victim or survivors) who is constitutionally entitled to a speedy trial. (I know that doesn't technically include a speedy indictment, but I think the general principle holds about who has the real burden if justice is delayed in a criminal case.) Assuming the outcome of the trial is just, then justice is served even if it took longer to obtain than if the defendant had been a private citizen rather than a government employee. Except to the extent that delays are the result of attempts to protect the defendant from the claims of the criminal justice system, rather than something less malicious, I don't see much to be concerned with over a slow pace. I'd rather a case be properly made slowly, than brought to trial in haste. That remains true whether it is "obvious" to the public that it was bad shoot, or whether it appears to be a legit case of justified use of force.

Charles
Well, there is this tidbit, from the linked article in my previous post.
But after the shooting in 2013, Fairfax County police officials declined to share basic information in the case. The name of the officer who killed Geer, for example, remained secret for more than a year after the shooting. Fairfax Commonwealth's Attorney Ray Morrogh even had trouble getting information from the police, which initiated a federal investigation of the police department.
Then there is the frustration endured by the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors.
Members of the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors said they were frustrated when they learned that the county prosecutor couldn't get information from the county police, so they created a special commission to examine the department and make recommendations.

"We've never had a situation that got as, I would use the word a bit convoluted, and held things up in a way that frustrated the Board of Supervisors," says Sharon Bulova, chairwoman of the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors. “Fairfax has learned a lot about communicating information more thoroughly and quickly. We have taken steps to rectify what has gone wrong with the Geer case.”
The frustrations over "full disclosure" were endured by the state while the public languished blissful ignorance.

This incident is not about slow pace, but about the top cop and his minions protecting one of their own...the Blue Wall of Silence looms large...very obvious. If we are willing to see it.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Well, there is this tidbit, from the linked article in my previous post. Then there is the frustration endured by the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors. The frustrations over "full disclosure" were endured by the state while the public languished blissful ignorance.

This incident is not about slow pace, but about the top cop and his minions protecting one of their own...the Blue Wall of Silence looms large...very obvious. If we are willing to see it.

It seems I missed a major and material aspect of the story. Don't I feel foolish.

My thanks to you for pointing that out "OC for ME". And my apologies to SVG for responding as though he had grossly over-reacted.

In this case SVG is exactly correct. Witnesses withholding information from prosecutors or other investigating agencies is and should be prosecuted as obstruction of justice, at least; perhaps even as accessories after the fact. That it hasn't happened here and probably won't speaks to the problems with the prosecutor's office as well as within the police department.

Charles
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
It seems I missed a major and material aspect of the story. Don't I feel foolish.

My thanks to you for pointing that out "OC for ME". And my apologies to SVG for responding as though he had grossly over-reacted.

In this case SVG is exactly correct. Witnesses withholding information from prosecutors or other investigating agencies is and should be prosecuted as obstruction of justice, at least; perhaps even as accessories after the fact. That it hasn't happened here and probably won't speaks to the problems with the prosecutor's office as well as within the police department.

Charles
Foolish, not realy. You are not alone in missing information. I too have had a "spell" or two.

Prosecutors and cops are one and the same in my view. Judges have their back. The justice system is nothing but a very exclusive club that focuses only on preserving their process and perks. The great unwashed masses are just one "misunderstanding of the law" away from being subjected to their full force and fury.

We endure great hardships, at their whim, and when they are shown to have mad a "mistake" a check and "sorry dude" is their expectation to make things right. We are expected to accept and "move on."

Eliminate QI and exemptions in the law. Also, the "reasonable man" standard is very often not a standard that is reasonable at all...as far as I am concerned.
 
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