St.Paris Police Cuff me

Copied from my post at ofcc

My friend and I were heading to Subway in St.Paris for a bite and we noticed a St.Paris police officer sitting at the bank. Mindful of the situation I monitored my speed and stayed within the limits, when we were half way through town the officer decided to pull out and catch up, as we crossed the tracks going out of town he flipped his lights on and I pulled over.

The officer came up to the window and of course the first thing I said is "Sir, I have my concealed carry and my weapon with me" He responds with "Ok, where is it?" I responded "It's under the seat". He then replies "Is it in a holster?" I said yes. He said keep your hands in plain sight and step outside the vehicle. At this time my friend had the chance to notify him of his CCW and weapon. The officer acknowledged and told him to remain seated with his hands up. As I got out of the car I kicked my holster and knocked my handgun out of it. This irritated the officer, he said you just lied to me, you said it was in the holster.. After this he says I am transporting the firearm illegally and I am being detained, He grabbed my left arm and handcuffed me against my jeep. I asked why I was being arrested and the officer said "You're not under arrest you are being detained" He proceeded to walk me over to his car and I informed him that I have hip problems and am physically incapable of getting into his car.

He opened his door and I TRIED to get in.. Didn't work. My friend got out of the truck with his hands in plain sight and Informed the officer of the change in the law making it legal to transport the handgun on the floorboard. He continued to tell me to sit down, as I was sitting on the door jamb incapable of getting fully into the car. My friend said to him there was no reason to have me detained and the officer opted to keep me in cuffs and have me stand next to his car for it seemed like around 10 minutes.. in 30 degree weather

The officer called in backup which happened to be the Champaign County Game Warden. Once the Game Warden arrived the officer freed my hands. He then told my Friend to get back in the truck. My friend responded with Sir, I'm going to stand here and observe" The officer said "No, get back in the truck". Three more times my friend said he was just going to observe. The officer then replied with "Get back in the truck or I will arrest you" My friend replied "You can't arrest me for observing" the officer walked over and grabbed his arm and said "Get back in the truck or you are under arrest" My buddy declined and the officer proceeded to put him in handcuffs and took him to the back of the car. In violation of orc 2921.31 "Obstruction of official business" He was simply standing next to the Jeep out of the way, about 15 feet from the officer.

So after that, I was told to get back in my truck and wait there, I did so. After around 15 minutes the officer came back up to my window and said "Well, I'm not going to take him to jail, your buddy is going to leave with you and he will receive a summons". So he let my friend out of the cruiser and then walked back up and said bring my proof of insurance in to him within a couple days and proceeded to walk away. I said "Sir, My firearm?" He replied with "It's under your seat in the holster".
The same thing he handcuffed me for...

Not once during the stop did he even inform me as to why he pulled me over. I received no citation, no warning, nothing.. My friend had his firearm returned in the condition it was in when taken.

Lawsuit?

Whether or not you decide to file a lawsuit,
right now you need to file a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to get the video from the car, any radio traffic, any report filed, etc. for both the original officer & the warden.

If he didn't have RAS of a crime when he stopped you, then the stop was illegal & everything that came from it is illegal too... including the bogus "obstruction" charge.

If you might file a lawsuit, its probably best to get a mod to delete the thread.

If you've decided to just file a formal written complaint, then I want to ask whether you have omitted any details. For example, you kicked the gun out of the holster when alighting from the truck, but it was reholstered when you got back into the truck at the end of the stop. Did the cop reholster it? Did the cop run the serial number? Were you in a position to observe whether he or the back-up ran the serial number?

No.

When you get an LCCH in OH (soon to be a CHL), you buy into the game. The rules of the game include following the officer's instructions. You and your friend did not. Count yourself lucky that you are not facing charges.

Now, if you had followed the officer's instructions, you might have a lawsuit if the officer had no good reason to stop you. However, he probably did--and just forgot about it in dealing with the firearm situation. Even if he didn't, you know he does. He'll say he did, and that will be that.

My advice: Get out of the game. Instead of playing their game, by their silly rules, exercise your RKBA. OC.

How did I not follow the rules? I did everything the officer told me to do. There was no reason for me to be handcuffed. Yes, the officer reholstered the weapon while I was standing next to his car, I do not think he ever took my gun out of the vehicle.

While standing next to his car he went on to explain that he was shot in iraq and guns frighten him.

You didn't get into the car when told to do so. Your friend got out of your car when told to stay in it.

If you are going to CC with a LCCH, follow every instruction absolutely. You've bought into the game; play it. If you don't want to play the State's game, OC.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

xD.45Service said:

How did I not follow the rules? I did everything the officer told me to do. There was no reason for me to be handcuffed. Yes, the officer reholstered the weapon while I was standing next to his car, I do not think he ever took my gun out of the vehicle.

While standing next to his car he went on to explain that he was shot in iraq and guns frighten him.

Click to expand...

If that is the case then this guy need to be removed from the force immediately. Respecting guns is a requirement, fearing guns will get someone killed.

xD.45Service said:

How did I not follow the rules? I did everything the officer told me to do. There was no reason for me to be handcuffed. Yes, the officer reholstered the weapon while I was standing next to his car, I do not think he ever took my gun out of the vehicle.

While standing next to his car he went on to explain that he was shot in iraq and guns frighten him.

Click to expand...

Was your friend armed? If so, I don't fault the officer telling him to get back in the car. Without knowing whether or not he had RAS, it is very difficult to judge his actions. Determining what his RAS was (if any) is pretty important.

Also how are you able to sit in your car but not his?

xD.45Service said:

How did I not follow the rules? I did everything the officer told me to do. There was no reason for me to be handcuffed. Yes, the officer reholstered the weapon while I was standing next to his car, I do not think he ever took my gun out of the vehicle.

While standing next to his car he went on to explain that he was shot in iraq and guns frighten him.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't focus on that so much as I would focus on others who didn't follow the rules.

First, cops have authority to make people get out of the car for cops' safety. If they can do that, they can certainly make people stay in the car. It seems to boil down to cops having authority to control the movements of people during a temporary seizure while they investigate. Its kinda hard to investigate when people just leave. Regarding making people get out or back in the car, see PA vs Mimms at the link below.

I kinda suspect there are things you're not telling us. Whether deliberately hiding something to make yourself look better, or just didn't think them important to tell us, I couldn't say. But, so far the precise sequence doesn't quite add up. With that said, just using what you have given us, here is what I would think happened.

Cop sees two guys in a truck ride by. Bored or thinking the situation ripe for a fishing expedition, he decides to stop you.

He hears the magic word "gun" when you and your friend notify him. Aha! Now, he's got reason to start flexing his might a little bit more. And, the gun having slid out of the holster gives him an opportunity to feign indignation at being lied to.

A little later, your friend challenges his say-so by not immediately complying with the order to return to the car. Also, he's now got a potential adversary who is both refusing to comply with orders and is in a better position to attack him. And, if he really did pull you over for no reason, he's going to be feeling a little guilty minded, and maybe even worrying whether the honest citizens are going to start vigorously protesting an illegal seizure.

Not sure why he didn't arrest your pal. Maybe he wants to avoid the court looking too closely at his reason (of lack of a reason) for pulling you over. Maybe when he was angry about the holstered gun "lie", the holster was not visible to him under the seat, but he later found it under the seat, and realized testimony to the effect that the holster was right there under the seat would pretty much ruin any prosecution for unholstered gun. Or, maybe he realized you weren't really a good candidate for a fishing expedition and decided to ease up a bit on you and your friend. Kinda hard to say.

Oh, by the way, I'm pretty sure cops can legally cuff a detainee for the cop's protection during a temporary seizure. Can't recall the law to cite it, so I won't make a firm declaration. However, even having legal authority to do it, doesn't make it right in every circumstance. You can still formally complain against it. There is no requirement that you have the law on your side when making a complaint.


http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/434/106/case.html

There is more here: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Your-4th-and-5th-Amendment-Resources-Here!!&

Since you weren't speeding, is there anything else that might prompt being pulled over?

A suspiciously loud muffler? Window tint maybe right on the borderline or definitely too dark? Vehicle suspension too high?

Do you have any NRA stickers or anything like that on the back of the truck that might be visible from where the cop was sitting as you went past? Something that might make a questionable cop say, "Hmmm. I wonder if I can get an arrest for failure to notify?" Or, say, a "legalize marijuana" bumper sticker that might make a questionable cop think, "I wonder if I pull that truck over whether I might then smell marijuana and have probable cause to search the truck and maybe find something arrestable?"

MKEgal said:

Whether or not you decide to file a lawsuit,
right now you need to file a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to get the video from the car, any radio traffic, any report filed, etc. for both the original officer & the warden...

Click to expand...

OMG, not this again! It is NOT a FOIA request. FOIA stands for "Freedom of Information Act" and is the law under which one requests records from the FEDERAL government.

The law the O.P needs to act under is an open records law, so he will need to make a open records request.

Let's be accurate, shall we?

BB62 said:

OMG, not this again! It is NOT a FOIA request. FOIA stands for "Freedom of Information Act" and is the law under which one requests records from the FEDERAL government.

The law the O.P needs to act under is an open records law, so he will need to make a open records request.

Let's be accurate, shall we?

Click to expand...

They are being accurate. Some states do in fact call their state's open-records statutes Freedom of Information Act. VA is one. Others call it sunshine laws, open records, etc.

Its kinda like aspirin. Used to be Bayer's exclusive term. Now its the generic term. FOIA and FOI have now become the generic acronyms for open records laws.

Citizen said:

They are being accurate. Some states do in fact call their state's open-records statutes Freedom of Information Act. VA is one. Others call it sunshine laws, open records, etc.

Its kinda like aspirin. Used to be Bayer's exclusive term. Now its the generic term. FOIA and FOI have now become the generic acronyms for open records laws.

Click to expand...

BB62 said:

OMG, not this again! It is NOT a FOIA request. FOIA stands for "Freedom of Information Act" and is the law under which one requests records from the FEDERAL government.

The law the O.P needs to act under is an open records law, so he will need to make a open records request.

Let's be accurate, shall we?

Click to expand...

Citizen said:

They are being accurate. Some states do in fact call their state's open-records statutes Freedom of Information Act. VA is one. Others call it sunshine laws, open records, etc.

Its kinda like aspirin. Used to be Bayer's exclusive term. Now its the generic term. FOIA and FOI have now become the generic acronyms for open records laws.

Click to expand...

Clip - mag - no difference.

"They are being accurate." No they are not. They are being general or your term generic.

color of law said:

Clip - mag - no difference.

"They are being accurate." No they are not. They are being general or your term generic.

Click to expand...

True. Permit me to rephrase. They are being accurate enough to convey the idea without confusion. I can see benefit from precision language in many things; I can see no benefit from demanding precision on this point. The advice recipient just looks up his state open records law and finds the text of the statute. Nobody is gonna be too confused by the terms.

Citizen said:

They are being accurate. Some states do in fact call their state's open-records statutes Freedom of Information Act. VA is one. Others call it sunshine laws, open records, etc.

Click to expand...

Well, in that case, I'll be a monkey's uncle! I am newly enlightened.

For the information of all, in Ohio it is "open records".

My sincere apologies to the lady.

Why ask us? You and your buddy were stopped. Not every detail could be supplied cuz we don't have the cop's side of the equation. It is your money and time. Asking for validation one way or the other here is permitting the clock to keep on ticking. If you think you have a beef with the cops use the system to prove you were aggrieved and require redress. I recommend that you find a lawyer.....er, attorney and seek his advice.

The officer said 'your buddy is going to leave with you and he will receive a summons".. Does that mean he was handed a ticket or is one coming by mail?

How many posts have been written here and other sites where arguing with officers on the side of the road is not good business?

I didn't read anything about a voice recording, but in so many posts, there has been a recording made, but unposted. Unless there is a recording, whether by you or a dash cam, its gonna be your word against his. Without a recording, he could of had a 5 minute conversation with you about anything traffic, related to the reason he stopped you in the first place. Your word against his.

Do a Open Records Request, (not FOIA, for it is Federal) for the dash cam video and audio. You need to gather evidence that your stop was improper to begin with. It doesn't sound like you have grounds for any kind of a lawsuit b/c you have no damages, ie: broken arm, physical injury, shot, or incarcerated.

IMO, (for what that's worth) the best you could hope for is filing a complaint for a fishing expedition, in which both of you played into LEO's hands by not following orders, which were legal orders for officer safety. Wide latitudes there.

JSlack7851 said:

IMO, (for what that's worth) the best you could hope for is filing a complaint for a fishing expedition, in which both of you played into LEO's hands by not following orders, which were legal orders for officer safety. Wide latitudes there.

Click to expand...

Well, he will have to get in line. Many Saint Paris residents have complained to the city about Officer McConnell. But he’s still employed, apparently.

JSlack7851 said:

The officer said 'your buddy is going to leave with you and he will receive a summons".. Does that mean he was handed a ticket or is one coming by mail?

How many posts have been written here and other sites where arguing with officers on the side of the road is not good business?

I didn't read anything about a voice recording, but in so many posts, there has been a recording made, but unposted. Unless there is a recording, whether by you or a dash cam, its gonna be your word against his. Without a recording, he could of had a 5 minute conversation with you about anything traffic, related to the reason he stopped you in the first place. Your word against his.

Do a Open Records Request, (not FOIA, for it is Federal) for the dash cam video and audio. You need to gather evidence that your stop was improper to begin with. It doesn't sound like you have grounds for any kind of a lawsuit b/c you have no damages, ie: broken arm, physical injury, shot, or incarcerated.

IMO, (for what that's worth) the best you could hope for is filing a complaint for a fishing expedition, in which both of you played into LEO's hands by not following orders, which were legal orders for officer safety. Wide latitudes there.

Click to expand...

This is a good point. If no summons was issued, I wonder if the cop was planning to just abandon whatever he was up to while saving face.

BB62 said:

Well, in that case, I'll be a monkey's uncle! I am newly enlightened.

For the information of all, in Ohio it is "open records".

My sincere apologies to the lady.

Click to expand...

In days of yore, it was called the "sunshine law." The "open meetings" provisions were called the "blue sky law."

Legislators love to tag their bills with names like that.