Open carry and loss prevention

I have now been open carrying in the Virginia beach area for about 1 year. Originally I open carried about 50% of the time I now open carry 100%; for a reason I will get to in a moment. Reflecting on my experiences, I have yet to have an individual customer say anything to me. Only 2 people have even mentioned my gun to me at all: both were bank managers at Wells Fargo 1 positive and 1 negative. I have passed police officers numerous times and none has said a word to me; in fact once while in line at Walmart one of the cashiers asked an officer if what I was doing was legal. He said “What open carry? Yes its legal”. She said that she had never seen it before. He replied that it just was very rare.

Now to the reason why I open carry now 100% of the time. A few months ago I noticed that sometimes myself and my family were being tailed while in a store by plain clothes store security people. I thought that it might be because I was open carrying so I started to open carry less to avoid the hassle. I then realized that store security follows you around either way. Part of it is because my family fits a profile I have 2 young kids and use a baby stroller. My wife is in her early 30’s but looks younger and is a minority; this also fits a profile as well. I have heard people say that once a woman with a stroller enters a store Loss prevention goes on high alert. While I am followed much more when I am with my wife and kids, I do sometimes get followed while shopping by myself.

All of this brings up an important problem. I am fairly certain that these people are just security idiots living in a fantasy world, but when you follow a normal customer for no reason throughout the store your intentions might not be so clear. I don’t know for a fact if these people aren’t purse snatchers, kidnappers, etc so I have to keep my eye on them as well. This often leads to an exchange of angry glances and sometimes they will back off a bit. An additional huge problem is that although my wife is Hispanic, she is dark enough that many times people think that she is black. Many of the store security guys are simply ghetto thugs making $9.00 per hour who let their seething hatred of interracial couples show through. The possibility of one of them inventing a reason to stop me has crossed my mind. I have had a few of them walk step for step with me as I cash out and get in line behind me. When I walk they walk, when I stop they stop; its ridiculous.
Anyhow, this is why I now open carry 100% of the time:
to protect myself and my family from criminals outside the store as well as the criminals inside the store who often work as loss prevention officers. Just do a Google search or you tube video search and you will see that numerous people are killed by these guys every year. They assault innocent customers everyday because they “think” they saw something. They often will tackle women, even pregnant ones (my wife is 6 months pregnant) with no regard for the baby.

Now to my dilemma, what to do if I am surrounded by 5-10 of these people for no reason other than one of the racist ghetto thugs wants to bother the mixed couple and make a false accusation. I am a big guy and I know how to wrestle; but I don’t have a distorted view of myself and I know that I can’t defend myself against 10 other big guys without the use of a weapon. If someone tries tackling me, I have no way of knowing if they are going for my gun or not. I have no way of knowing that one of them won’t tackle my pregnant wife for no reason either. Open carry should prevent most of this as most companies have a policy of not physically interacting with armed people, simply calling the police. I have no problem with this as I am doing nothing wrong other than shopping while white while open carrying. The hypothetical problem is if one of them initiates a physical altercation with me or assaults my wife I have 2 basic choices.
1. Let it happen and be at their mercy and pray they don’t go for my gun or tackle my pregnant wife. Or
2. Be willing to go the full distance to protect myself and my family; up to and including use of deadly force.

In the past year of living here I have seen less than five interracial couples with a white man and a black female; I have yet to see one with kids. Having kids really pushes racist people over the edge. I know that they exist, but like the couple in northern VA who had Walmart security call the police on them, they never go out in public together due to the harassment.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...hters-walmart-shopping-trip-article-1.1351429

A few other concluding thoughts. I have heard others say that store security now treats everyone like criminals since the Obama recession as things are so bad that even normal people are committing crimes. I have also heard that some stores now use facial recognition and perhaps we open carriers are in such databases whether we are open carrying or not. It wouldn't surprise me if one of these thugs put me in the database just so that I would get further harassed.

Finally, I dress conservatively I am a clean cut 40 year old white guy with 2 masters degrees working on a PhD. I am usually left alone when I open carry by myself and I have heard the stockers mumble 5.0 as I walk by. My wife is almost done with her law degree and looks very sweet and innocent. I know that I could avoid 90% of this harassment by doing all of the shopping by myself, but I refuse to live my life like that. Any thoughts, comments, anecdotes or solutions would be appreciated.

Many stores use plain clothes security people to look for shoplifters (they're supposed to be anonymous, but often they're as anonymous as an unmarked police car). How do you know that these folks who follow you around are actually store security personnel? Maybe they actually are the "ghetto thugs" you're concerned about. Have you ever reported them to store management as "suspicious persons"?

confront Loss Prevention

2a4all said:

Many stores use plain clothes security people to look for shoplifters (they're supposed to be anonymous, but often they're as anonymous as an unmarked police car). How do you know that these folks who follow you around are actually store security personnel? Maybe they actually are the "ghetto thugs" you're concerned about. Have you ever reported them to store management as "suspicious persons"?

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They are in the store every time that I go there. They usually work in pairs. They wear blue tooths and talk into them. They will sometimes engage in discussion with the manger as you are leaving. They have either no cart and no items or walk around with an empty cart if they are a male/female couple. I could go on and on. I have only thus far confronted 1 such couple and when I did the short mouthy one said "If I was following you, you would be the last to know". Then he asked me if "that is your gun" I said yes. He then said "we sell guns just like that one here". This was at walmart where they sell no handguns only bb guns. As this was occurring the bigger one approached me to intimidate me, invading my space and telling me to calm down. I bladed myself from him to protect my weapon and stepped back and prepared for a sucker punch or something. He stopped in his tracks. I then told him that I had already talked to the Loss Prevention manager about a previous incident. He walked away in disgust and worry. I told them that I was going to call the head office the short mouthy one said "go ahead" while the big one looked angry at him.

Seeing how aggressive they are (aggressively closing the distance) and that they are willing to start framing their side of the story on the spot with lies (basically they are professional liars) The short one was going to use the "we sell those here too" line as justification for the big one seizing my gun; I decided not to have any verbal interactions with them unless absolutely necessary.

I have had to study up quite a bit on them and their tactics due to these types of situations; now I can usually spot them a mile away. I think that open carriers need to familiarize themselves with store security and their tactics as part of their situational awareness. And as you see my worries are not entirely hypothetical, I have already seen how aggressive, dangerous and stupid they are.

PS As I was leaving 6 more of these characters were hovering right at the front door. I placed all of my stuff in 1 basket; we had been using 2 and told my wife to get her phone out and be ready to call the police. I had turned strong side towards them as I was repositioning my groceries (not on purpose, but later thought that I was glad that I did); either that or my readiness to call the police caused them to disappear by the time I looked up. I think they went into that side room near the shopping carts right next to the front door to hide as I left. They completely disappeared. Another open carry self defense story no matter how strange it may be. BTW I have read that LP doesn't like for you to call the police as they are often engaged in illegal acts of assault, false imprisonment etc. So keep your gun, your recorder and your cell phone with you always.

Mongoose72 said:

They are in the store every time that I go there. They usually work in pairs. They wear blue tooths and talk into them. They will sometimes engage in discussion with the manger as you are leaving. They have either no cart and no items or walk around with an empty cart if they are a male/female couple. I could go on and on. I have only thus far confronted 1 such couple and when I did the short mouthy one said "If I was following you, you would be the last to know". Then he asked me if "that is your gun" I said yes. He then said "we sell guns just like that one here". This was at walmart where they sell no handguns only bb guns. As this was occurring the bigger one approached me to intimidate me, invading my space and telling me to calm down. I bladed myself from him to protect my weapon and stepped back and prepared for a sucker punch or something. He stopped in his tracks. I then told him that I had already talked to the Loss Prevention manager about a previous incident. He walked away in disgust and worry. I told them that I was going to call the head office the short mouthy one said "go ahead" while the big one looked angry at him.

Seeing how aggressive they are (aggressively closing the distance) and that they are willing to start framing their side of the story on the spot with lies (basically they are professional liars) The short one was going to use the "we sell those here too" line as justification for the big one seizing my gun; I decided not to have any verbal interactions with them unless absolutely necessary.

I have had to study up quite a bit on them and their tactics due to these types of situations; now I can usually spot them a mile away. I think that open carriers need to familiarize themselves with store security and their tactics as part of their situational awareness. And as you see my worries are not entirely hypothetical, I have already seen how aggressive, dangerous and stupid they are.

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Mongoose, I share your dislike for Mall Ninjas....but aren't you over reacting a tad?

Mongoose72 said:

They are in the store every time that I go there. They usually work in pairs. They wear blue tooths and talk into them. They will sometimes engage in discussion with the manger as you are leaving. They have either no cart and no items or walk around with an empty cart if they are a male/female couple. I could go on and on. I have only thus far confronted 1 such couple and when I did the short mouthy one said "If I was following you, you would be the last to know". Then he asked me if "that is your gun" I said yes. He then said "we sell guns just like that one here". This was at walmart where they sell no handguns only bb guns. As this was occurring the bigger one approached me to intimidate me, invading my space and telling me to calm down. I bladed myself from him to protect my weapon and stepped back and prepared for a sucker punch or something. He stopped in his tracks. I then told him that I had already talked to the Loss Prevention manager about a previous incident. He walked away in disgust and worry. I told them that I was going to call the head office the short mouthy one said "go ahead" while the big one looked angry at him.

Seeing how aggressive they are (aggressively closing the distance) and that they are willing to start framing their side of the story on the spot with lies (basically they are professional liars) The short one was going to use the "we sell those here too" line as justification for the big one seizing my gun; I decided not to have any verbal interactions with them unless absolutely necessary.

I have had to study up quite a bit on them and their tactics due to these types of situations; now I can usually spot them a mile away. I think that open carriers need to familiarize themselves with store security and their tactics as part of their situational awareness. And as you see my worries are not entirely hypothetical, I have already seen how aggressive, dangerous and stupid they are.

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Let me know which Walmart you shop at. I'm going to avoid it as if my life depended on it.

Walmart to avoid

FBrinson said:

Let me know which Walmart you shop at. I'm going to avoid it as if my life depended on it.

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This occurred at the one on Phoenix drive in Virginia beach. I haven't gone back there since.
Previous to this I had 1-2 minor incidents such as a plain clothes guy running from the other isle and standing 2 feet away from me staring intently at me as I looked at their ammo case.

I now usually go to Nimmo drive, get followed there sometimes but never anything so openly hostile. These guys really do live in a fantasy world. Incidentally, the loss prevention guys at better stores such as Khols, best buy etc. make a lot more money, are better trained and have never been openly aggressive with me.

You sound a little too paranoid. I work LP and you are definitely doing some over-exaggerating.

peter nap said:

Mongoose, I share your dislike for Mall Ninjas....but aren't you over reacting a tad?

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Maybe, my wife's take on it was that the 6'3 300 lbs black guy came over to intimidate me and walked away when he couldn't. The shorter guy implied that he too was armed (probably against company policy) and let me know it in a roundabout way. They both had bloodshot red eyes either because it was late night or because they were on something. I guess that my late night schedule lets me run into the worst of the worst.

hunter45 said:

You sound a little too paranoid. I work LP and you are definitely doing some over-exaggerating.

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Hunter, I am sure that you are well trained and do your job well. I doubt that you work at Walmart, K-mart etc. Like I said elsewhere the LP at the better stores you will barely notice. Additionally, you need to know that the racial dynamic is something which will cause people to do stupid things out of their hatred. Like I said any harassment I get from LP is nothing compared to what happens when I am out with my wife and kids. You would think that being a family man would make them leave you alone?

Previous to this year I saw LP in action 2 times in force. One time at the Glen Bernie Maryland Wal-Mart 10 employees were on top of a 170 lbs guy who was stealing some Cds. They said code 500 on the speaker and the whole store came up and tackled him. Another time I saw a 120 lbs 14 year old boy with 5 grown men from Safeway on top of him saying that he couldn't breath. Me and a female Safeway manager had to talk to these guys for a full minute to convince them that 5 200 plus pound men could crush him. His crime for this near death experience was stealing some cough syrup. These grown men had beaten him up so bad because of his smart mouth that there were no charges filed against him as Safeway was worried about a lawsuit.

Not to cast aspersions here, but how does your wife dress (muslim, conservative, flamboyant, lots of jewelry, etc.)? What time of day do you usually shop?

2a4all said:

Not to cast aspersions here, but how does your wife dress (muslim, conservative, flamboyant, lots of jewelry, etc.)? What time of day do you usually shop?

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She is Hispanic and usually wears jeans and a polo shirt. Right now she is pregnant and is wearing maternity clothes. She keeps her hair in a ponytail usually. She has very little jewelry; maybe wears stud ear rings. These negative encounters have all occurred after 10 pm when the graveyard shift is on and there are few customers in the store. When I shop earlier like 6 PM or so I haven't had any major interactions as there are so many customers I think that the Lp is busy looking for actual criminals.

Again, a lot of this is racially motivated. There is a reason why interracial couples are very rare, it can get you hurt quickly. Around here the whites just will give you an odd look occasionally, the blacks are much more angry and confrontational. I am sure if I was average size I would have been confronted numerous times by now. They usually just look angry from a distance and say to each other "she got a snowman" or "a homeboy should be with that."

I don't regret my marriage as she is a wonderful wife, the type that existed in previous generations in America. But it has caused me some situations which I had never thought about. Its actually a large part of why I initially took the plunge into open carrying.

peter nap said:

Mongoose, I share your dislike for Mall Ninjas....but aren't you over reacting a tad?

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That ^ ^ and most will not read a wall of text like we did. Also find that race is not a major, reoccurring issue that is implied.

The central issue

I will gladly answer any questions about my particular situation; but I think that the important point is one which applies to all of us: what do you do if you are confronted by store security non-LEO while armed and they want to disarm you for whatever reason. Any threads I have heard were full of tough guy stuff like "me and my gun won't be separated" or "I would break his arm if he tried". In the real world it will be a lot messier than this. There will be at least 5 big guys and maybe a few women even either surrounding you or trying to prevent you from leaving. You could call the police if they kept their distance from you; but what if they don't? What if your wife and kids are touched by them? What if they try restraining you? That is the question.

Mongoose72 said:

I will gladly answer any questions about my particular situation; but I think that the important point is one which applies to all of us: what do you do if you are confronted by store security non-LEO while armed and they want to disarm you for whatever reason. Any threads I have heard were full of tough guy stuff like "me and my gun won't be separated" or "I would break his arm if he tried". In the real world it will be a lot messier than this. There will be at least 5 big guys and maybe a few women even either surrounding you or trying to prevent you from leaving. You could call the police if they kept their distance from you; but what if they don't? What if your wife and kids are touched by them? What if they try restraining you? That is the question.

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Leave if you can. Do not fight your battle there. The courts provide better relief.

Hopefully a recorder is capturing all information.

There is a cited story out there (couldn't find it) about a security guard that unannounced tried to disarm a trained combatant. The officer was hospitalized and fired from his job. It may have been in a Wal-Mart. Anybody know the story and with a link?

Here's a thought

Next time, go straight to the 1st employee you find and ask to speak to the manager.

Do NOT go to the customer service desk, tell them you need to speak to him where you are. When he arrives, tell him that you are being followed by some suspicious people and he might want to call security or the police. Then point them out to him.

After you do this a few times, the LP "thugs" as you call them will get the point, as will the manager.

If not, file a formal complaint with pictures at the store management and corporate level

va_tazdad said:

Next time, go straight to the 1st employee you find and ask to speak to the manager.

Do NOT go to the customer service desk, tell them you need to speak to him where you are. When he arrives, tell him that you are being followed by some suspicious people and he might want to call security or the police. Then point them out to him.

After you do this a few times, the LP "thugs" as you call them will get the point, as will the manager.

If not, file a formal complaint with pictures at the store management and corporate level

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Well again I would gladly leave if they allowed. Going to a manger is often not a solution as he is often right there next to them as they probably have told him you were up to no good etc. Again things haven't gotten to this point, but they easily could have. Most stores have a policy of calling the police if a "suspect" is armed; which is fine as I have done nothing wrong. But in the worst case scenario where you or your family are assaulted by them you are left with the 2 options I originally mentioned:
1. Let it happen and hope that they don't do hurt your family. Remember young kids and pregnant wife involved.
2. Defend yourself and your family with your weapon if need be.

va_tazdad said:

Next time, go straight to the 1st employee you find and ask to speak to the manager.

Do NOT go to the customer service desk, tell them you need to speak to him where you are. When he arrives, tell him that you are being followed by some suspicious people and he might want to call security or the police. Then point them out to him.

After you do this a few times, the LP "thugs" as you call them will get the point, as will the manager.

If not, file a formal complaint with pictures at the store management and corporate level

Click to expand...

^^Good advice~~I do not have problems in Walmart, but at one time Walmart did not have high standards on who they hired for LP, I would think lawsuits have changed that. I used to get hassled when leaving the store about seeing my receipt, but a simple "bugger off" cleared that up. But then they used to do that to everybody, not just me.

no question about it.

Mongoose72 said:

Well again I would gladly leave if they allowed. Going to a manger is often not a solution as he is often right there next to them as they probably have told him you were up to no good etc. Again things haven't gotten to this point, but they easily could have. Most stores have a policy of calling the police if a "suspect" is armed; which is fine as I have done nothing wrong. But in the worst case scenario where you or your family are assaulted by them you are left with the 2 options I originally mentioned:
1. Let it happen and hope that they don't do hurt your family. Remember young kids and pregnant wife involved.
2. Defend yourself and your family with your weapon if need be.

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Use the court system. Aided by the bad press they will get when you are innocent, you wouldn't believe how fast they settle.

The 2nd "option" is no option at all unless you have a big red "S" on your chest. Drawing your gun in the situation you described is a losing matter.

"Are you following me?"

"Why are you following me?"

"Please stop following me."

"If you do not stop following me I'm going to call store security."

All said at a volume just above conversational, but not shouting. The idea is for other shoppers (the ones you may have to go get near to) when saying those lines so as to create a cadre of witnesses.

You must have your digital voice recorder going as this is happening. Be sure it picks up conversation where you decide to carry it - you may hve to move it from a shirt pocket to an outside pocket. Checking this before you go shopping is important - just like checking that your handgun is loaded and secured properly, and that the diaper bag (if you use one) has all the proper items loaded. Bring extra batteries and if you have been out & about for several hours before going shopping you might want to put in fresh batteries. Haveing you and your wife each wear digital voice recorders is a good idea.

Loss prevention has a job to do, and they do work off of profiles because those profiles generally are accurate. Most LP folks know the difference between an irritated but honest customer and some lowlife trying to intimidate them into ceasing survelience. Most LP folks will either tell you (usually indirectly) that they are LP and possibly even apologize if they figure out they have improperly profiled you. Mall rats usually do not do these things.

If you are pretty sure you are being followed by LP who are goons/JBTs and the store manager is there with them being less than helpful I have a few suggestions (in addition to the above):

1- get the manager's name and contact the district/regional manager (and then corporate if no satisfaction there) about being harassed
2- if it is not a stand-alone store, contact the mall/shopping center management. Often they can/will intervene if it sounds like one store might be behaving such to drive away business
3- if you just want to be a major pain, load up with as much merchandise as you can actually afford to purchase, and go to the registers and buy it. Then head directly to customer service with your purchases and receipt and request a refund. Yes, you will be acting like a jackwagon. Yes, it will take up more of your time. But think of the time and effort that must be expended to return all your purchases to the proper shelf in the proper department (or get thrown out if perishables). It's almost as if you are creating job security for some poor schlub who does that. And in most stores the reason for returning merchandise is noted and goes to higher-ups. "Store personnel were intimidating and harassing. I do not want to shop here again" might catch someone's attention.

Be polite. Be lawful. Maintain control of your voice and your emotions. Make no threats, but it is important to keep promises to address and follow up on displeasing behavior.

And if after being followed all over the store you get to the exit and the same goons/JBTs or some others demand to see your receipt, you might want to start the "Are you accusing me of shoplifting?" followed when told "No" with "Then please allow me to exit the store" routine. If they physically block you, you must decide if you want to call the police regarding assault (if they touch you) and/or [attempted] kidnapping charges. (The point is not to have them arrested (unless they really push themselves into that corner) but to have another record [police report] of the incident. The police may try to talk you out of pressing charges - if so get names and badge numbers if you have not already gotten that information both on your digital voice recorder and in writing.)

And last but not least - try not to point your finger at anyone. It's legal but apparently some people may feel threatened by your doing so.

stay safe.

Question for Skidmark

Skidmark,

You have a lot of good ideas in your posting. I am curious whether you would let a group of such people tackle you and disarm you or if you would draw. I think that when you are armed and attacked by non-LEO goons you have no idea of the outcome. They could easily use your own gun on you and claim that they were just defending themselves. From your previous postings I assume that you would defend yourself as it has risen to the level of justifiable self defense? Am I right? I know that I would never allow a group of men to assault my wife pregnant or not. I would probably start by pushing them off her; but if a wrestling match starts and I am outnumbered the gun would be coming out. I also know full well that defending your family against security could be a legal nightmare which I hope never occurs. However, if you aren't willing to use your firearm to defend yourself or your family then you really shouldn't be wearing a firearm as it could easily be used against you. My 2 cents.