Something I've noticed regarding CC vs OC supporters

We are not impressed with those who demean and belittle, anonymously, on the Interwebs and yet show no such courage when faced with our "opponent" on the "field of battle."

In addition, I have noticed what seems to be a "we are better than you" mentality from the CC'ers. An arrogance that they think themselves the only possesors of the true common sense and moral high ground to spout their case. Many of their arguments against OC are the same arrguments the anti gunners use against guns in geneeral. Sadly, right after Oklahoma became na OC state, one of the training academies participated with a local news organization to film a "fake" gun grab to show how easy it would be to take an OC'ers gun. They had the OC'er just standing with his arms folded, gun exposed, and he didn't react to the presence of a threat until the threat actually had his hand on the grip of the weapon. People I had really respected lost all credibility with that one act.

eye95 said:

Carry is a right that has constitutional protection. Concealment is not so protected and is, therefore, subject to regulation by the State (or protection by its constitution), making it a privilege in most States.

They are two separate acts. Thinking of them that way gives amazing clarity.


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Why isn't concealment protected? Regulating the manner in which one bears (e.g., carries) an arm (such as saying that it may not be concealed unless one has a permission slip) is, by definition, an infringement.

eye95 said:

Who cares if the argument is weak?? Is it valid? Yes, it is.

The act of concealment is separate from the act of carry, is not necessary to exercise the Right of Carry, and does not, in any significant way, ease or make more difficult the exercise of the Right. Your example greatly increases the difficulty of exercising the Right to Write and so is a faulty analogy.

Again, it is not the weakness or the strength of an argument. It is its validity that matters. And I would argue that a valid argument is the strongest argument.

Once again, folks, focus like a laser on the target! Our goal is to normalize carry. Saying carry alone is not good enough, that concealment must be respected too is taking that laser dot off the target. Get focused.

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Your position is arbitrary, as one could just as easily take the position that carry with concealment is the default, no-permit-needed case, and that open carry is a privilege. How did you go about determining that the word "bear" in the SA applies specifically to open carry, and that concealed carry falls outside of the scope of "bear" in that context?

minarchist said:

Why isn't concealment protected? Regulating the manner in which one bears (e.g., carries) an arm (such as saying that it may not be concealed unless one has a permission slip) is, by definition, an infringement.

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The 2A is an implementation of the God-given (or natural, if you prefer) right to defend oneself. Carry is kind of necessary to the defense. Putting fabric over the carried firearm is not. Laws that prohibit, limit, or license concealment do not prevent carry.

minarchist said:

Your position is arbitrary, as one could just as easily take the position that carry with concealment is the default, no-permit-needed case, and that open carry is a privilege. How did you go about determining that the word "bear" in the SA applies specifically to open carry, and that concealed carry falls outside of the scope of "bear" in that context?

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Carry is the default. Covering the carried firearm is an attendant act not necessary to the carry.

eye95 said:

The 2A is an implementation of the God-given (or natural, if you prefer) right to defend oneself. Carry is kind of necessary to the defense. Putting fabric over the carried firearm is not. Laws that prohibit, limit, or license concealment do not prevent carry.



Carry is the default. Covering the carried firearm is an attendant act not necessary to the carry.

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Holy crap, I agree with you!!!

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I'll be the first to tell you that people like that don't speak for all CCers. Concealed is the only way I carry outside of work (I'm a security guard), but that's my choice. Just because concealed is what's best for me, doesn't mean it must be what's best for everyone. However someone chooses to carry, I respect it.

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This may be a simplistic view but it is my gun and my right to carry it. Sometimes I choose to carry open, sometimes concealed. I try and evaluate each environment that I will be in and carry appropriately (as determined by me).

It is a little like driving styles. I don't care for some of the styles drivers around me choose even if legal. The speed limit in a snow storm may be reckless in my book but for the guy in the 4 wheel drive Humvee he doesn't even break a sweat. His right to operate his chosen vehicle in a manner "he believes" is safe (and does not break any of the many laws concerning how to operate that vehicle) should not be criticised just because I would "never" drive that way. Likewise, he should not be able to "vote" me off the road and say that because I choose to drive at a speed and a manner which I am comfortable/confident (again within the limits of the law) even if it means he has to slow down or rein himself in if he gets stuck behind me. The "other side" is not the real threat to our freedoms and can't we just agree to disagree and get on with making sure we are able to protect those we love tomorrow?

Just my 2 cents worth, blast away....

This may be a simplistic view but it is my **** and my right to carry it. Sometimes I choose to wear pants, sometimes I don't. I try to evaluate each environment that I will be in and carry appropriately (as determined by me).

If they tell me that I can't carry it, we gonna have a problem. They tell me I gotta cover it, OK. They tell me I need a license not to cover it, and I'll pay the $2.


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Keylock said:

One thing I've noticed in my own behavior since going to OC a few months back is that I tend to be exceedingly more cordial to people I come into contact with. If I'm not in a hurry and time allows me the opportunity to talk with people when they question my carrying, the interactions go very well. I hadn't planned on being an ambassador for the bearing of arms in the public arena yet it seems to be a result of OCing. I was simply seeking a more physically comfortable method of carrying. The CC guys I've talked to with have all stated to me that they were going to try OC. Haven't had personal, negative conversations with CC'rs other than on forums.

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I've noticed I do the same. And if you're a "waitperson" you definitely want me as the tipper. :monkey

tattedupboy said:

Other than at my job (I'm a security guard) CC is the only way I carry. I used to be one of those who demonized open carry. Not, it doesn't really matter to me anymore. Just because CC is what is best for me doesn't make it the best for everyone. Whether someone wants to CC, OC, small of back carry, or duct tape their gun to their forehead, it makes no difference to me. Different people have different preferences.

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I agree 100%!!!!! It does not matter how people who are doing the right thing wants to handle their business. OC or CC is a preference that should should not be infringed upon!!!

Keylock said:

One thing I've noticed in my own behavior since going to OC a few months back is that I tend to be exceedingly more cordial to people I come into contact with. If I'm not in a hurry and time allows me the opportunity to talk with people when they question my carrying, the interactions go very well. I hadn't planned on being an ambassador for the bearing of arms in the public arena yet it seems to be a result of OCing. I was simply seeking a more physically comfortable method of carrying. The CC guys I've talked to with have all stated to me that they were going to try OC. Haven't had personal, negative conversations with CC'rs other than on forums.

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Excellent post and just another good reason to OC. It not only deters a criminal from attacking you it can be a very useful tool in educating the masses who would otherwise be clueless. This has happened to me as well (even in the checkout line at Walmart) and I am more than happy to answer all their questions. We all know that there is lots of unjustified fear of firearms out there which the anti-gunners just love to perpetuate. It even gives me a great opportunity to handout my instructor business card.

eye95 said:

This may be a simplistic view but it is my **** and my right to carry it. Sometimes I choose to wear pants, sometimes I don't. I try to evaluate each environment that I will be in and carry appropriately (as determined by me).

If they tell me that I can't carry it, we gonna have a problem. They tell me I gotta cover it, OK. They tell me I need a license not to cover it, and I'll pay the $2.


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:uhoh:

Respectfully request a qualifying statement.....please!

Though if you choose the latter option and not the former, do you transition to a shoulder rig?

Think about what the **** stood in place of. It ain't "gun."

I was satirizing an earlier post.


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OK.

OC for ME said:

:uhoh:

Respectfully request a qualifying statement.....please!

Though if you choose the latter option and not the former, do you transition to a shoulder rig?

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A kilt or shorts are not pants.

Perhaps what needs to be considered isn't what "bear arms" means in reference to how those arms are borne attempting to parse the difference between the words "carry" and "conceal" but what "shall not be infringed" means....

"Shall not be infringed" is a direct command from "we the people" to "them the government" that the government does NOT have the power to regulate or control the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

When the government says it has the power to require permission be had from the government in order to bear an arm in a certain way... it isn't the "certain way" that is in contention... it is the fact that the government says it has the power to regulate the right to bear arms by controlling how arms are borne when it requires permission be had to bear an arm in a certain way... and it is the "permission be had from the government" in reference to the bearing of arms that is a direct violation of...

"shall not be infringed".

Bikenut - you Sir are way ahead of the "game". I only hope the rest of "us" (American public) figure this out before it's too late.

I prefer OC in the winter with my jacket over it but i find my draw is much slower when i CC. My problem is i live in AR where it is CC but im 10 minutes from memphis, TN where it is OC so i am forced to CC a lot of times.

It's just nice being able to have a choice, there are certainly pros/cons to each side as well as a pro/con for OC/CC in each potential situation. Carrying how you feel comfortable and practicing regularly with whatever you choose is most important. I would also add that being situationally aware of your surroundings is extremely important as well.

I find myself open-carrying more and more often. The primary reason? My wife expressed her dislike of my CC vest many times over the years I wore it to conceal my handguns. Her words were a bit more direct: "I hate your vest!" We'd also go to restaurants when I was wearing a light jacket, and she'd ask, "Are you cold?" Then she'd get mad because I couldn't take it off because we didn't have OC here in Oklahoma. Since November 1st of last year, OC has been legal. Since it has warmed up, I haven't worn a vest or light jacket except when CC made more sense, but I have been wearing my guns.

I've read about CC people giving OCers hard times, and I know a firearms instructor who has expressed his doubts about it from a "tactical" point of view (mostly based on the opinions of the "usual suspects" in print or on video). However, my instructor friend recognizes OC as a valid, important extension of our right to keep and bear arms.

My recommendations, which my friend above endorses, on OC are as follows:

1. Get training on weapons retention.

2. Use holsters with some type of security device, if only a thumbbreak, especially if you're going to be around a lot of people

3. Practice situational awareness at all times.

4. Get over it. By that I mean don't act like you're doing anything special and don't keep touching your sidearms or holsters.

5. Be unfailingly polite, even to people who are hateful.

ECS