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few questions about transportation

Uziel Gal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
93
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
Nothing in WI firearm laws has the words "Out of Reach" in them, and if it did, what is the legal definition of ;Out of reach"?

State v. Asfoor (1977)
The defendant also argues that the court erred in refusing to give the jury instruction he submitted on going armed with a concealed weapon. The instruction submitted by the court was Wis J I—Criminal, 1335. The court stated that the weapon must have been concealed. The word "concealed" has a plain meaning but the court clarified the meaning for the jury by stating "f a weapon is hidden from ordinary observation then it is concealed." "It was the defense theory of the case that any concealment was inadvertent . . ., that the gun was not such as to be available for immediate use. . . ." This theory was covered by the instruction given. If the jury thought the gun was placed under the seat inadvertently, it presumably would not have convicted. Concealing or hiding a weapon precludes inadvertence. When the court explained what "going armed" meant, it used language of this court in Mularkey v. State, 201 Wis. 429, 432, 230 N.W. 76, 77 (1930). It stated that "going armed" meant that the weapon was on the defendant's person or that the weapon must have been within the defendant's reach and that the defendant was aware of the presence of the weapon. The defendant's instruction that the weapon must be available for immediate use and that one must either know or intend it to be available for immediate use would have only confused the issue. The court's instructions were a correct statement of the law.

THREE CHEERS FOR A FIX OF WISCONSIN GUN LAWS
 

Nutczak

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
2,165
Location
The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
Ok, lets look at some practical examples here,

Mr. Nutczak is traveling from his home, on foot to his chosen deer hunting spot. But I need to travel within 1,000 feet of school property, so current law requires me to have my rifle encased and unloaded to be legal due to the proximity of the school.

Lets say I am taking my truck now, so I do not need to hoist a deer onto my shoulders to bring it in to the registration station. We look at the DNR's vehicle transportation laws, I need to have the gun fully enclosed in a case which is "Specifically made to enclose a firearm" with no part showing to be legal for vehicle travel.

Am I now unable to put that properly cased and unloaded gun into the storage box under the rear seat of my truck and stay legal? No, that is legal as long as the gun is encased and unloaded before going into or on the vehicle.
Is the gun concealed? yes. illegally concealed? No1 Do I know it is there even though it is concealed? Yes. Am I breaking any laws? I say no!

Can I legally put an unloaded gun into a vehicles glove compartment if it is not in a proper case? No. But I can put a properly cased and unloaed firearm into that same glove compartment because it was properly cased before being put into the storage compartment.
Just as I can have an unloaded and properly cased gun in a backpack while I am riding a motorcycle or snowmobile or walking.

I say that a gun case is not illegal concealment, so therefore I also say that once a gun is unloaded and properly encased, it does not matter where it is placed in a vehicle be it within reach, out of reach, readily discernible from outside of the vehicle even under or behind a seat. As long as it is unloaded and properly encased I see no laws being broken.
Would some weinerhead cop possibly write a ticket for his misinterpretation of the laws? Yeah, they might try, bt they will be made to look like a fool in court.

What exactly is the definition of "Out of reach" In a regular cab truck, there is no place that I cannot physically reach. So using that, even if I was charged, My need to conceal a firearm for outweighs the states need to prohibit it. Because if I could not travel with my firearm in that truck, it basically eviscerates my 2A rights.

Whats next?
How about "Brandishing" since the word does not exist in WI law
 

AaronS

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,497
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
So I just have to ask. Does anyone know of any case in the last 15 or so years that a person with a unloaded gun in a case was found guilty of concealing it? I am 42, and I know I have not. Not just in an auto, but even on person? Once unloaded, and put in a case, we look not to have any issues... To me...

Oh, and mine goes right behind my seat in the truck. Not that it is any rule of law, but just saying...
 

phred

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
768
Location
North Central Wisconsin, ,
I guess Nutczak and I are on the same page. If we're both found guilty of having a properly encased and unloaded firearm "with in reach" in a vehicle, I guess we'll just have to "eat crow". I bet Nutzcak has recipe for it someplace in his kitchen. Hmm, BBQ Crow that's thought!

Next case!
 
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M

McX

Guest
what's good enough for Nik, is good enough for me. If the Chairman carries unloaded encased- front seat, thusly i do, and have no shame, nor willing to accept any debate on it. makes me feel warm and cozy as i move about.
 

apjonas

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
1,157
Location
, ,
I am tempted

what's good enough for Nik, is good enough for me. If the Chairman carries unloaded encased- front seat, thusly i do, and have no shame, nor willing to accept any debate on it. makes me feel warm and cozy as i move about.

to say something like "If Nik jumped off a bridge....." Nik may be a nice, very bright guy but you really out to come to a decision based on your own thinking. If it turns out to be identical to Nik's..that's fine. The OCDO people are certainly well-versed in OC and related matters but their positions do not give them any unique insights into the law, how court will rule nor determine shame or the validity of debate. You can feel warm and cozy by peeing your pants too but I wouldn't recommend it.
 
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BrewTownBagger

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Messages
150
Location
Wauwatosa
If I get on my Harley with my Glock on my hip is the gun considered concealed? Do I need to unload and case before going out for a cruise? Common sense would say no, but seeing this is Wisconsin something tells me I would need too :banghead:
 

protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
If I get on my Harley with my Glock on my hip is the gun considered concealed? Do I need to unload and case before going out for a cruise? Common sense would say no, but seeing this is Wisconsin something tells me I would need too :banghead:

It violates 167.31 though. :rolleyes:
 

swfaninwi

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
26
Location
Wisconsin
Wait a minute....

"Wis. judge affirms robbery victim's gun rights

MILWAUKEE (AP) — A Milwaukee County judge has ruled the state's concealed carry statute unconstitutional as applied to a man who had an unloaded, encased gun under a car seat after he had been robbed.
Circuit Judge J.D. Watts says 28-year-old Jeremy Pinnow of Cascade, had few other options for exercising his right to bear arms for security and self-defense.

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported Sunday that Watts' ruling comes as gun rights advocates expect the new GOP-controlled Legislature to allow concealed carry in Wisconsin, one of two states that ban it entirely.

Pinnow was doing remodeling last April when he and two co-workers were robbed at gunpoint by two men who hogtied them. He was searching for his stolen car two nights later when police searched the car he was using."

http://content.usatoday.net/dist/custom/gci/InsidePage.aspx?cId=journal&sParam=35790517.story

First, the statute doesn’t say “out of reach”. Why was he charged?

Second, at least the judge understands following the law in situations that could be applied to motorcycles and bikes with limited methods of carrying unloaded and encased.

Edit: I see a thread has been started with the above article …
 
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protias

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
7,308
Location
SE, WI
I read 167.31 and don't see any mention of motorcycles, am I missing something?

Where would I keep it? Sounds like the law violates my rights:cuss:
(h) “Vehicle” has the meaning given in s. 340.01 (74), and
includes a snowmobile, as defined in s. 340.01 (58a), and an elec-
tric personal assistive mobility device, as defined in s. 340.01
(15pm), except that for purposes of subs. (4) (c) and (cg) and (4m)
“vehicle” has the meaning given for “motor vehicle” in s. 29.001
(57).

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-all...-I-m-Going-For-an-OC-Bike-Ride../page2
 

Captain Nemo

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
1,029
Location
Somewhere, Wisconsin, USA
out of reach

Uziel gal:
State statute23.33 allows the transport of a firearm on an ATV if it is encased, presumably unloaded, although the statute doesn't state such. Also the statute does not refer to 167.31 as beimg imposed. There is also similar statute requirements for snowmobiles. Although transport of firearms are lawful on both those types of vehicles they are constructed such that it is not possible to carry an encased firearm "out of reach". It is apparent that the legislature does not consider "out of reach" a requirement when transporting a firearm otherwise transporting a fiream on any such vehicles would be unlawful in your interpretation.

Hamdan is seriously flawed. Your quote of paragraph 48 of that case states that the legislature does not allow any exceptions to statute 941.23, other than peace officers. It furthur states that it is a strict liabiliy statute that allows no other exclusions including the activities contained in Article I section 25, one activity of which is security. However the WSC ruled that by not allowing Hamdan to carry a concealed weapon in his store for the purpose of security the State was in violation of Hamdan's constitutional rights. How convoluted is that?

The things we gain from Hamdan is:

First: Open carry is constitutionally protected because it is the only reasonable alternative to the prohibition of concealed carry. Second: The carry of a concealed firearm in or on ones property is constitutionally protected, (in contradiction to para. 48). Third: A statement that the only recognized manners of carry are concealed and visible , which concludes that visible carry is the only reasonable alternative to concealed carry. Beyond those anything else in Hamdan is for the most part useless to our cause, including the reference to the 1975 case of State v Asfoor.

There are some other "motherhood" statements in Hamdan but they are similar to a politician saying he/she spports in the second amendment with no explanation as to what specifically do they support.

Statutes 167.31 and Article I section 25 didn't exist in 1975. 167.31 was enacted in 1985 and Article I section 25 in 1998. The reference in Asfoor of "out of reach" was not made toward transport of a firearm in or on a vehicle but was made in regard to concealment on one's person. The "out of reach" statement in Asfoor could not possibly have considered vehicle carry or the RKBA amendment in it's intent. They didn't exist in 1975.

You take para 48 out of context, as did the WSC in Hamdan. I repeat; The requirement that a firearm be unloaded and encased when transported in or on a vehicle wasn't in effect when Asfoor was decided. The "out of reach" in Asfoor was to preclude concealing a firearm on ones body while in an automobile.

Many exchanges that I have had with the DNR legal department leads me to the conclusion that unloaded and encased are the only requirements to transpot of a firearm in or on a vehicle.

The only member of the WSC that got it right in Hamdan was Patrick Crooks. Article I section 25 of the state constitution made statute 941.23 unconstitutional.

These are my opinions and are not intendid as legal advice.
 

IcrewUH60

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
481
Location
Verona, Wisconsin, USA
I carry encased, unloaded behind the passenger seat out of plain view.

I don't speed.
All my lights work.
I obey the traffic laws.
I compy with lawful orders.
I don't talk to cops.
I never give permission to search.

that's how I transport in my vehicle.
 
M

McX

Guest
transport; dont know if i spoke on this one. usual day; shop gun in the holster till quitting time, then out onto my private property parkinglot, .45 tucked in belt, cond. 3, coat open for access, unload and encase once i'm in the vehicle, and my doors are locked, transport on the front seat, next to me, all the way home. reverse in the mornings.
 

Uziel Gal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
93
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
As I get more disturbed

Just because you choose to do something even if you have had multiple Law Enforcement interactions and have never been charged does not make such conduct legal. First they said there would never be a charge of carrying a concealed weapon for a unloaded and encased firearm. Then when someone is charged and is granted an as applied constitutional defense they say, see, its perfectly legal. Lets stop admitting to potentially violating laws, agree that the laws in Wisconsin are more draconian then we ever thought possible, and push for real and immediate change. Until then lets try to abide by the rules and law of the land.

FORUM RULES
(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
 

phred

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
768
Location
North Central Wisconsin, ,
From http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116088824.html
Watts found that Pinnow, in contrast, had just been robbed, was searching for his stolen car in a high-crime area, and had tried to comply with another state law about the transportation of firearms by keeping his gun unloaded, and in a case.

He was exercising his right to bear arms in a reasonable and prudent manner,” Watts wrote.

Requiring Pinnow to put the encased unloaded firearm out of reach would effectively deny him his right to bear arms guaranteed,” by Wisconsin’s Constitution, according to the decision.

Emphasis is mine.

This is exactly what some of us have been saying all along here. The gun needs to be unloaded and encased. PERIOD IMHO it also helps that Pinnow was innocent of any other wrongdoing
According to Watts’ order, released Friday, no evidence at hearing suggested Pinnow had the gun for any unlawful purpose.

What more evidence does one need?
 

rcawdor57

Campaign Veteran
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
1,643
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Exactly...

No part of the statutes does it say it has to be out of reach.


+1

Once again the transport and out of reach argument starts. Let's ask all the police in Wisconsin to stake out all the gun stores and arrest everyone who walks in or out with a gun "hidden from plain view" for a violation of 941.23. Every time a gun is purchased the "offender" can be arrested as soon as he/she closes the lid to the box the gun is in or puts it in the bag. Same goes for knives, bows, arrows, etc....the list is long.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to follow 941.23 AND 167.31 simultaneously.

I agree with Protias, Phred, McX, Nik and many others: When I transport my firearm it is "Unloaded and encased" on the front seat next to me. Nothing states it has to be out of reach during transport.
 

Uziel Gal

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
93
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
is someone cooking BBQ CROW

No part of the statutes does it say it has to be out of reach.

What part of the criminal element of carrying a concealed weapon which must be "on the defendants person or within reach" are you incapable of seeing? It is right there in the statute. State v. Keith (1993) You do realize that we have been talking all along about violating 941.23 not 167.31 right? You can see that it says in the statute that if a dangerous weapon is hidden and within ones reach it is a technical violation of 941.23. You might want to listen to the oral arguments in State v. Hamdan where the State argues that dangerous weapons concealed in the home are a violation of 941.23 but because they do not bring charges it remains constitutional. That line of reasoning is probably the sole reason that Hamdan allowed for ccw in the home and place of business. If some of you want to take a fanatical position on this that is your right, if some have no desire to attempt compliance with both statues that is your choice, but to continue to delude oneself and others makes me rethink how ready we are for constitutional carry. Perhaps we do need some mandated professional instruction and paper permits.


941.23 Carrying concealed weapon. Any person except
a peace officer who goes armed with a concealed and dangerous
weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. Notwithstanding s.
939.22 (22), for purposes of this section, peace officer does not
include a commission warden who is not a state−certified commission warden.
History: 1977 c. 173; 1979 c. 115, 221; 2007 a. 27.
The burden is on the defendant to prove that he or she is a peace officer and within
the exception. State v. Williamson, 58 Wis. 2d 514, 206 N.W.2d 613 (1973).
A defendant was properly convicted under this section for driving a vehicle with
a gun locked in a glove compartment. State v. Fry, 131 Wis. 2d 153, 388 N.W.2d 565
(1986).
To “go armed” does not require going anywhere. The elements for a violation of
s. 941.23 are: 1) a dangerous weapon is on the defendant’s person or within reach;
2) the defendant is aware of the weapon’s presence; and 3) the weapon is hidden.
State v. Keith, 175 Wis. 2d 75, 498 N.W.2d 865 (Ct. App. 1993).
A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation
by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from
view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon under this
section. State v. Walls, 190 Wis. 2d 65, 526 N.W.2d 765 (Ct. App. 1994).
There is no statutory or common law privilege for the crime of carrying a concealed
weapon under s. 941.23. State Dundon, 226 Wis. 2d 654, 594 N.W.2d 780 (1999),
97−1423.
Under the facts of the case, the privilege of of self−defense was inapplicable to a
charge of carrying a concealed weapon. State v. Nollie, 2002 WI 4, 249 Wis. 2d 538,
638 N.W.2d 280, 00−0744.
The concealed weapons statute is a restriction on the manner in which firearms are
possessed and used. It is constitutional under Art. I, s. 25. Only if the public benefit
in the exercise of the police power is substantially outweighed by an individual’s need
to conceal a weapon in the exercise of the right to bear arms will an otherwise valid
restriction on that right be unconstitutional, as applied. The right to keep and bear
arms for security, as a general matter, must permit a person to possess, carry, and
sometimes conceal arms to maintain the security of a private residence or privately
operated business, and to safely move and store weapons within those premises. State
v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056. See also State
v. Cole, 2003 WI 112, 264 Wis. 2d 520, 665 N.W.2d 328, 01−0350.
A challenge on constitutional grounds of a prosecution for carrying a concealed
weapon requires affirmative answers to the following before the defendant may raise
the constitutional defense: 1) under the circumstances, did the defendant’s interest in
concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms
substantially outweigh the state’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapons statute? and 2) did the defendant conceal his or her weapon because concealment was the
only reasonable means under the circumstances to exercise his or her right to bear
arms? State v. Hamdan, 2003 WI 113, 264 Wis. 2d 433, 665 N.W.2d 785, 01−0056.
This section is constitutional as applied in this case. The defendant’s interest in
exercising his right to keep and bear arms for purposes of security by carrying a concealed weapon in his vehicle does not substantially outweigh the state’s interest in
prohibiting him from carrying a concealed weapon in his vehicle. State v. Fisher,
2006 WI 44, 290 Wis. 2d 121, 714 N.W.2d 495, 04−2989.
Judges are not peace officers authorized to carry concealed weapons. 69 Atty. Gen.
66.
 
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