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OC, CHP, and GFSZA

WX4SNO

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Snowville, Virginia
I'm new to open carry and have applied to get my CHP...should be here by the end of the month. I'm getting mixed answers to some research on carrying within 1000' of a school. If you have your VA CHP, can you walk or drive within 1000' of a school here in Virginia while CC and OC? Some other websites said you can't be OC'ing within the zone while others said you can...which is correct? Thanks!
 

WX4SNO

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Snowville, Virginia
I can't answer your question. I'm still stuck on this part.:uhoh:

I've been openly carrying my handgun for several months now and just recently applied for my VA concealed handgun permit... I steer clear of all the local schools but we have one near my parents home and was wondering if it's legal to OC and simply drive or walk by if you have your CHP (or in my case, will have).
 

JohnM15A

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
234
Location
Woodbridge, VA
I can't answer your question. I'm still stuck on this part.:uhoh:

Bad Peter.

With a resident VA CHP you can carry (OC or CC) within the 1,000' from the property line but not on the property. With a resident VA CHP you can CC in a car onto the property but you must stay in the car. I believe the intent is to allow parents to drop off and pick up their kids. There are those that say a CHP is not a "license" and therefore not applicable to federal law. Private property is exempt. My property is entirely within the 1,000' of a school so I cannot set foot on the sidewalk legally carrying without a CHP.

I think... Don't quote me...
 
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TFred

Regular Member
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Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Yes, ignore Peter Nap's post. He's a nice guy, but he gets a little grumpy about CHPs. He was reacting to the apparent disparity between your statements about OC'ing, and applying for a CHP. :)

The answer to your question is quite simply, nobody knows. The reason nobody knows is because as far as I am aware, there has never been a court case that settled the question once and for all.

The GFSZA is one of the most heinous laws on the books of the US Code. The feds hold it like a hammer over the head of nearly every law-abiding citizen who chooses to carry a gun.

Regarding Virginia, I will admit my point of view is in the minority, but the only reason for that is because the conclusion that one must reach if they accept the plain text reading of the laws involved is so horrible, it must be rejected - even though as far as I know, there is no legal rational to justify that.

According to the plain text of the law, no citizens in Virginia can claim the "license" exemption provided in the GFSZA, because it clearly requires that the state must issue a license to "possess" a gun. ["if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so"] Virginia does not issue a license to possess. The CHP that Virginia issues does one thing only, and that is to exempt the holder from the generally illegal act of concealing a handgun. Since Virginia does not issue the required license to be exempt from the GFSZA, EVERY person who carries a gun within 1,000 feet of a school zone (except ON DUTY police officers) is a felon.

In order to accept that a CHP exempts you from the GFSZA, one must believe that a CHP is a license to "possess" a gun. Nobody has yet been able to provide a cite to any law or court finding that supports such a leap.

Then there is the whole other issue of reciprocity, namely that BATFE believes reciprocal agreements mean nothing with regard to GFSZA, which nullifies any gun carry in any state for which you do not have their actual permit.

One day, I hope a court case will come along that settles these questions. Read the text for yourself and make up your own mind:

Beginning of Virginia CHP law
Section 18.2-308.01, which explains the purpose of a CHP
Wiki article on GFSZA, which includes the text of the law

Here's the important part:

Until that time comes, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, there are literally hundreds of thousands of us "federal felons" running around the state every day. As long as you don't do anything crazy, the odds are strongly in your favor that it will never be a problem. No guarantees, though, which is exactly the way the feds want it.

TFred

ETA: In fact... I just went back and more carefully read 18.2-308.01, to make sure I didn't miss anything. My opinion that a CHP does not qualify for the GFSZA "license exemption" just got much stronger. Paragraph C, which we all love to argue about regarding carry on private property, actually explicitly states that having a CHP does not authorize possession where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law. To those who think I'm crazy, read the paragraph below, and tell me how a Virginia CHP can possibly exempt someone from the GFSZA, when it specifically requires a license to possess!

"C. The granting of a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property."
 
Last edited:

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Bad Peter.

With a resident VA CHP you can carry (OC or CC) within the 1,000' from the property line but not on the property. With a resident VA CHP you can CC in a car onto the property but you must stay in the car. I believe the intent is to allow parents to drop off and pick up their kids. There are those that say a CHP is not a "license" and therefore not applicable to federal law. Private property is exempt. My property is entirely within the 1,000' of a school so I cannot set foot on the sidewalk legally carrying without a CHP.

I think... Don't quote me...

True but if OC'ing, you do not have to have your permit with you when you carry within 1,000' of a school. You just have to have been issued one.
 
Last edited:

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Yes, ignore Peter Nap's post. He's a nice guy, but he gets a little grumpy about CHPs. He was reacting to the apparent disparity between your statements about OC'ing, and applying for a CHP. :)

The answer to your question is quite simply, nobody knows. The reason nobody knows is because as far as I am aware, there has never been a court case that settled the question once and for all.

The GFSZA is one of the most heinous laws on the books of the US Code. The feds hold it like a hammer over the head of nearly every law-abiding citizen who chooses to carry a gun.

Regarding Virginia, I will admit my point of view is in the minority, but the only reason for that is because the conclusion that one must reach if they accept the plain text reading of the laws involved is so horrible, it must be rejected - even though as far as I know, there is no legal rational to justify that.

According to the plain text of the law, no citizens in Virginia can claim the "license" exemption provided in the GFSZA, because it clearly requires that the state must issue a license to "possess" a gun. ["if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so"] Virginia does not issue a license to possess. The CHP that Virginia issues does one thing only, and that is to exempt the holder from the generally illegal act of concealing a handgun. Since Virginia does not issue the required license to be exempt from the GFSZA, EVERY person who carries a gun within 1,000 feet of a school zone (except ON DUTY police officers) is a felon.

In order to accept that a CHP exempts you from the GFSZA, one must believe that a CHP is a license to "possess" a gun. Nobody has yet been able to provide a cite to any law or court finding that supports such a leap.

Then there is the whole other issue of reciprocity, namely that BATFE believes reciprocal agreements mean nothing with regard to GFSZA, which nullifies any gun carry in any state for which you do not have their actual permit.

One day, I hope a court case will come along that settles these questions. Read the text for yourself and make up your own mind:

Beginning of Virginia CHP law
Section 18.2-308.01, which explains the purpose of a CHP
Wiki article on GFSZA, which includes the text of the law

Here's the important part:

Until that time comes, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it, there are literally hundreds of thousands of us "federal felons" running around the state every day. As long as you don't do anything crazy, the odds are strongly in your favor that it will never be a problem. No guarantees, though, which is exactly the way the feds want it.

TFred

ETA: In fact... I just went back and more carefully read 18.2-308.01, to make sure I didn't miss anything. My opinion that a CHP does not qualify for the GFSZA "license exemption" just got much stronger. Paragraph C, which we all love to argue about regarding carry on private property, actually explicitly states that having a CHP does not authorize possession where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law. To those who think I'm crazy, read the paragraph below, and tell me how a Virginia CHP can possibly exempt someone from the GFSZA, when it specifically requires a license to possess!

"C. The granting of a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property."

Well done Tfred... good post.

There is one fly in the ointment for the feds with this law. States do not have to enforce (correct me if I am wrong). Were one to be arrested for violation of this law, the arrest would have to be made by a federal agent.

Again, please do correct me if I am wrong with this.
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
I am in NC, not Virginia, but since we are talking a federal law I will chime in. The GFSZA excludes private property, which happens to be where most of my OCing is, the store, hardware store, and stuff like that. If that is what you are doing don't concern yourself with the zone. If you are in your car you can secure your gun to be within the law.

I am not advocating breaking the law but I just do not concern myself with it at this time. But I don't push my luck by walking around across the street from a school either. If SCOTUS changes IMO the feds attitude towards enforcing this law will change. And with 10 more years of progressives in the White House, the makeup of SCOTUS WILL change.
 

JohnM15A

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
234
Location
Woodbridge, VA
True but if OC'ing, you do not have to have your permit with you when you carry withing 1,000' of a school. You just have to have been issued one.

Oopsie, In my defense, when I said "without a CHP" I meant having issued one, not physically on one's body. While on the subject, are we not required to carry the permit when carrying a sidearm?
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Oopsie, In my defense, when I said "without a CHP" I meant having issued one, not physically on one's body. While on the subject, are we not required to carry the permit when carrying a sidearm?

Only if it's concealed.
Despite many attempts to make it so.....this is not a permit state.
 

TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
I am in NC, not Virginia, but since we are talking a federal law I will chime in. The GFSZA excludes private property, which happens to be where most of my OCing is, the store, hardware store, and stuff like that. If that is what you are doing don't concern yourself with the zone. If you are in your car you can secure your gun to be within the law.

I am not advocating breaking the law but I just do not concern myself with it at this time. But I don't push my luck by walking around across the street from a school either. If SCOTUS changes IMO the feds attitude towards enforcing this law will change. And with 10 more years of progressives in the White House, the makeup of SCOTUS WILL change.
If walking, you have to walk on the sidewalks or street to get to the private property. If driving, simply putting your gun in the glove box does not cut it. The exemption states:

"(iii) that is— (I) not loaded; and (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;"

Also, not walking around across the street is pointless. 1,000 feet is nearly 1/5 of a mile - from ANY point of school property, which can be quite large and far away from the actual school buildings. Unless you live in the sticks, you likely encroach these zones many times a day without even knowing it.

TFred
 

TFred

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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Perhaps more importantly IMHO, is that the feds do not want a test case on GFSZA.

The first GFSZA was found to be unconstitutional and this one has virtually the same wording; hence, will likely be found to be unconstitutional also when challenged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990
Grape, did you notice that link has a list of NINE cases where the current version (after Congress added the interstate commerce clause) has been upheld? We all know that these cases are likely (haven't read them yet, but will when I get a moment) add-ons to other terribly violent crimes, but each time it's upheld makes it a little harder to overturn as a stand-alone charge.



TFred
 

WX4SNO

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Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Snowville, Virginia
Thanks for all the information everyone! Living in southwest Virginia, this isn't too much of a concern, but there are some businesses and restaurants within the 1000' zone that I frequent...I have yet to carry in those locations due to all the hype about GFSZA, but I'll feel better about it once I have my CHP in hand.
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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North Carolina
Thanks for all the information everyone! Living in southwest Virginia, this isn't too much of a concern, but there are some businesses and restaurants within the 1000' zone that I frequent...I have yet to carry in those locations due to all the hype about GFSZA, but I'll feel better about it once I have my CHP in hand.

Business/restaurants are private property are exempt in the GFSZA, you can carry in them with or without a permit.
 

peter nap

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Messages
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Thanks for all the information everyone! Living in southwest Virginia, this isn't too much of a concern, but there are some businesses and restaurants within the 1000' zone that I frequent...I have yet to carry in those locations due to all the hype about GFSZA, but I'll feel better about it once I have my CHP in hand.

That's exactly what it is...HYPE!

Don't be afraid of the bogyman.
 

TFred

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Messages
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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
That's exactly what it is...HYPE!

Don't be afraid of the bogyman.
Exactly!

As strongly as I believe that the GFSZA does make virtually every gun-carrier in Virginia a federal felon, I just as strongly believe that it doesn't matter as long as you don't do anything stupid.

My motive in jumping on this soap box is to eventually convince the powers that be of just how heinous this law is, and that it needs to GO! Its existence in current form is not compatible with a civilization that respects the rule of law.

TFred
 

TFred

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Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
Oopsie, In my defense, when I said "without a CHP" I meant having issued one, not physically on one's body. While on the subject, are we not required to carry the permit when carrying a sidearm?
Required yes, but a couple years ago, we got the law changed to make it like a driver's license. A civil fine if you don't have it on your person, which can be waived if you show you had one at the time you were ticketed. Prior to that change, the law treated not having it on you as if you didn't have one at all.

TFred
 

Grapeshot

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Grape, did you notice that link has a list of NINE cases where the current version (after Congress added the interstate commerce clause) has been upheld? We all know that these cases are likely (haven't read them yet, but will when I get a moment) add-ons to other terribly violent crimes, but each time it's upheld makes it a little harder to overturn as a stand-alone charge.

--snipped--
TFred
Also have not looked at them in detail yet. As an add-on charge, they are solidifying their position somewhat.
 
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