Two Troopers

peter nap said:

The source of the information is me!



What are you talking about?

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So you have been a personal witness to every Trooper stop in the state recently? How is my meaning not clear? Look at the question you skipped when quoting me, and the context should explain it: what percentage of encounters do you feel you are personally observing?

I wasn't intending to be confrontational, just get a feel for what you meant by "every" Trooper stop. A theater is an area, so what part of the state have you been seeing this? This will help in giving the discussion an idea. For example, if you live within 30 minutes of the training facilities, it might mean something. If you live within 30 minutes of some DHS liaison office, it might mean something.

MAC702 said:

So you have been a personal witness to every Trooper stop in the state recently? How is my meaning not clear? Look at the question you skipped when quoting me, and the context should explain it: what percentage of encounters do you feel you are personally observing?

I wasn't intending to be confrontational, just get a feel for what you meant by "every" Trooper stop. A theater is an area, so what part of the state have you been seeing this? This will help in giving the discussion an idea. For example, if you live within 30 minutes of the training facilities, it might mean something. If you live within 30 minutes of some DHS liaison office, it might mean something.

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I didn't say I'd seen every one in the state.

It sounded confrontational and I took it that way.

We are not in the military and I've been seeing them over the Southern part of Va. on the interstates and 360 which is the hot link into the South here.

The only DHS office I know of is in Richmond, which is central to the area I cover (about 200 miles).

Going East from Richmond today, all State police cars had one occupant and no one was pulled over probably because it was raining.

peter nap said:

I didn't say I'd seen every one in the state.

It sounded confrontational and I took it that way.

We are not in the military and I've been seeing them over the Southern part of Va. on the interstates and 360 which is the hot link into the South here.

The only DHS office I know of is in Richmond, which is central to the area I cover (about 200 miles).

Going East from Richmond today, all State police cars had one occupant and no one was pulled over probably because it was raining.

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N 360 or S 360?

All American Nightmare said:

N 360 or S 360?

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South. Amelia.

Chesterfield County SWAT trainees wear BDU's. I like to OC where they are having lunch. First time I saw them, I thought the NG was eating lunch.

Am I the only one uncomfortable with the level of militarization of our police forces?

riverrat10k said:

Chesterfield County SWAT trainees wear BDU's. I like to OC where they are having lunch. First time I saw them, I thought the NG was eating lunch.

Am I the only one uncomfortable with the level of militarization of our police forces?

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!

You sure aren't RR!

riverrat10k said:

....

Am I the only one uncomfortable with the level of militarization of our police forces?

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If by militarization you mean wearing military combat style clothing and routinely apperaring with long gtuns that may or may not be just semi-automatic versions of the toys the military plays with, and driving around in surplus military vehicles still painted in subdued (used to be called camoflage) patterns except for the light bar and the big honking "POLIZI" decals on the doors, then no, you are not the only one uncomfortable.

If by militarization you mean a rigidly enforced set of Rules of Engagement and strict enforcement of rules and swift punishment for violating merely the spirit, not to mention the letter of rules regaring behavior when interacting with "civillians" --

Sorry! I was getting carried away with a fantasy that the cops might be operating under military style rules as well as wearing/driving/carrying military surplus toys.

stay safe.

riverrat10k said:

SNIP Am I the only one uncomfortable with the level of militarization of our police forces?

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Nope. I've been saying for a while now that, just based on the numbers, the jurisdiction where I live is occupied by at least a battalion.

I don't think Boston 1775 had as many redcoats enforcing the kings laws. Per capita, Boston had more. But, mine are better equipped. Every single one is cavalry--riding a Crown Vic. Body armor. Radio communications. Genuine assault rifles and submachine guns. Semi-auto rifles. And, air-support from helicopters--equipped with infra-red, thank you.

Oh, and they hang together like you wouldn't believe. One gets shot or threatened, they all converge from all over the place. A funeral for such has every one of them turning out in his best dress to show solidarity. Civilians, not so much.

And, they go by cute military titles. Sergeant So-and-so. Lieutenant Such-and-such. The chief is styled a colonel.*

And, that doesn't count the actual military crawling all over the place pretending to believe in posse commitatus. I have no illusion that there won't suddenly be a "reasonable justification" for them to get involved if a little push comes to a little shove.

*Shows how much they know--colonels command regiments, not battalions. /sarcasm

Once upon a time...

1775 Boston had a population of about 30,000. The British Royal Governor (Commander of all British forces in North America) General Thomas Gage, had about 4000 Army troops under his command plus some Royal Navy assets such as the Marines (they were not yet "Royal"). The incursion to Lexington and Concord involved about 800 troops under Colonel Smith and about 700 reinforcements under Earl, Lord Percy. Estimates are that 14,000 colonials showed up for the festivities once the fireworks began. Of course in those days virtually EVERY man was armed and trained. It may be presumed that only the British officers were OC. (Hey, I have to keep it on topic )

2a4all said:

Did you happen to notice any insignia on the BDUs? I've seen VSP in BDUs which had the familiar VSP shoulder patch.

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VSP has navy blue BDU's as their Class B uniforms.

riverrat10k said:

Chesterfield County SWAT trainees wear BDU's. I like to OC where they are having lunch. First time I saw them, I thought the NG was eating lunch.

Am I the only one uncomfortable with the level of militarization of our police forces?

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I wear black BDU's on duty and combat boots. Why? Because their comfy and I like that I can fit lots of stuffz in the cargo pockets. :banana:

Law enforcement agencies often adopt this military style mindset because it creates a professional atmosphere for the people we serve. If we didn't have rank structure, uniforms, discipline, and superior weaponry and protective equipment (much like the military) to bring to the fight then we would just be men and women who show up to stop criminals while wearing jeans and a T-shirt carrying .38 revolvers who are not professional, courteous, or disciplined.

There are some bad eggs in law enforcement. (and fat eggs as well!)
So, with a slight skewed version (civilized version) of a military mindset you get officers that are capable of saving your life by running that extra mile. By fighting that extra minute. By getting shot 5 times but can still shoot back because of modern body armor to save you. Officers than are willing to risk everything they are or ever will be... for you. Just you. No matter who you are or what you did. You are our job and we will stop at nothing until you have a safe place to call home.

Still, even knowing that, you hate us.

Rant: Over

Doughnutman said:

I wear black BDU's on duty and combat boots. Why? Because their comfy and I like that I can fit lots of stuffz in the cargo pockets. :banana:

Law enforcement agencies often adopt this military style mindset because it creates a professional atmosphere for the people we serve. If we didn't have rank structure, uniforms, discipline, and superior weaponry and protective equipment (much like the military) to bring to the fight then we would just be men and women who show up to stop criminals while wearing jeans and a T-shirt carrying .38 revolvers who are not professional, courteous, or disciplined.

There are some bad eggs in law enforcement. (and fat eggs as well!)
So, with a slight skewed version (civilized version) of a military mindset you get officers that are capable of saving your life by running that extra mile. By fighting that extra minute. By getting shot 5 times but can still shoot back because of modern body armor to save you. Officers than are willing to risk everything they are or ever will be... for you. Just you. No matter who you are or what you did. You are our job and we will stop at nothing until you have a safe place to call home.

Still, even knowing that, you hate us.

Rant: Over

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We all don't hate you. A few here may be unreasonable, but most embrace and support the good that you do. What we have learned to do though is to limit our interaction through experience with the bad apple or two in your midst - in most cases we do not know who that might be ahead of time. Respect is a two way street and I for one will always meet you more than half way.

Grapeshot said:

We all don't hate you. A few here may be unreasonable, but most embrace and support the good that you do. What we have learned to do though is to limit our interaction through experience with the bad apple or two in your midst - in most cases we do not know who that might be ahead of time. Respect is a two way street and I for one will always meet you more than half way.

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No....we don't hate you, but I get a little tickled at bragging and chest thumping:lol:

riverrat10k said:

Am I the only one uncomfortable with the level of militarization of our police forces?

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God, no.

Doughnutman said:

I wear black BDU's on duty and combat boots. Why? Because their comfy and I like that I can fit lots of stuffz in the cargo pockets. :banana:

Law enforcement agencies often adopt this military style mindset because it creates a professional atmosphere for the people we serve. If we didn't have rank structure, uniforms, discipline, and superior weaponry and protective equipment (much like the military) to bring to the fight then we would just be men and women who show up to stop criminals while wearing jeans and a T-shirt carrying .38 revolvers who are not professional, courteous, or disciplined.

There are some bad eggs in law enforcement. (and fat eggs as well!)
So, with a slight skewed version (civilized version) of a military mindset you get officers that are capable of saving your life by running that extra mile. By fighting that extra minute. By getting shot 5 times but can still shoot back because of modern body armor to save you. Officers than are willing to risk everything they are or ever will be... for you. Just you. No matter who you are or what you did. You are our job and we will stop at nothing until you have a safe place to call home.

Still, even knowing that, you hate us.

Rant: Over

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In my experience, one doesn't dress up and play soldier to be "professional". Generally, one does that to be a tacticool asshat.

Just sayin'.

All the accoutrements you defend are trappings of the militarization of police which is specifically intended to circumvent this little thing called posse comitatus.

I'd find you much more professional and respectful if you comported yourself in a manner indicative of respect for those you supposedly serve. Jeans and a t-shirt doesn't cut it, but then BDUs are wrong on the other end of the spectrum. Try, you know, business casual. Something along those lines.

Also, you conflate your clothes, "rank", and equipment with your level of courtesy, professionalism (in action rather than appearance), and discipline. There is absolutely no relationship between any of those.

Doughnutman said:

There are some bad eggs in law enforcement. (and fat eggs as well!)

So, with a slight skewed version (civilized version) of a military mindset you get officers that are capable of saving your life by running that extra mile. By fighting that extra minute. By getting shot 5 times but can still shoot back because of modern body armor to save you. Officers than are willing to risk everything they are or ever will be... for you. Just you. No matter who you are or what you did. You are our job and we will stop at nothing until you have a safe place to call home.

Still, even knowing that, you hate us.

Rant: Over

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Thanks for writing this, I am very glad to take the opportunity to respond to it.

I speak for nobody but me, but for me, I say absolutely not. What *I* hate is the fact that these few bad eggs you acknowledge hold the same authority that you do, but choose to abuse that authority in ways that damage the reputation of the whole carton (keeping the egg metaphor) including yourself.

Of all the people who "hate" those bad eggs, it should be you who hates them the most, since it is your reputation that they harm.

If no LEOs ever trampled the Fourth Amendment, ever bent the rules to get that one more arrest or conviction, "forgot" when it was OK to lie and to tell the truth, or any of the other things that "bad eggs" do... then you as a whole group would be the most-loved people in the country.

I count several LEOs among my friends and I am happy and proud to do so.

One of my least tolerated group of people are those who abuse their power over the people, and that certainly includes bad egg LEOs.

TFred

Saw the same set up this morning on the way to breakfast at RCD...,

peter nap said:

For about a week now, every State Trooper that's pulled a car over had a Trooper in standard uniform giving the ticket and a second one (One car) in BDU's nurse maiding his back.

I thought it was because of the trooper that was killed and it may be, but who is the GI Joe?
Is it a State Trooper or Homeland Security?

It's OC related because the second one is really working the rear windows over I assume looking for guns.

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but both officers were on the passenger side of the vehicle. Just for reference and inquiring minds, it was on the north bound side of Route 1 just north of the Sonic, also north of Virginia Center Commons, and as Peter mentioned later, the guy in BDU's had "POLICE" , not "STATE POLICE" on the back of his shirt. They were using a black unmarked Dodge Charger.

sidestreet

Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

I don't think hate properly describes my feelings...,

Doughnutman said:

I wear black BDU's on duty and combat boots. Why? Because their comfy and I like that I can fit lots of stuffz in the cargo pockets. :banana:

Law enforcement agencies often adopt this military style mindset because it creates a professional atmosphere for the people we serve. If we didn't have rank structure, uniforms, discipline, and superior weaponry and protective equipment (much like the military) to bring to the fight then we would just be men and women who show up to stop criminals while wearing jeans and a T-shirt carrying .38 revolvers who are not professional, courteous, or disciplined.

There are some bad eggs in law enforcement. (and fat eggs as well!)
So, with a slight skewed version (civilized version) of a military mindset you get officers that are capable of saving your life by running that extra mile. By fighting that extra minute. By getting shot 5 times but can still shoot back because of modern body armor to save you. Officers than are willing to risk everything they are or ever will be... for you. Just you. No matter who you are or what you did. You are our job and we will stop at nothing until you have a safe place to call home.

Still, even knowing that, you hate us.

Rant: Over

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it's more like when I was growing up out in the "sticks", we had dogs, and as long as they were providing some protection and security around the place, we fed them and kept them, even growing fond of them, but when they started causing problems, like killing the neighbors chickens, or biting the bread man, Dad, PUT THEM DOWN!

It was the same with snakes. Certain types we let be because they kept other types of snakes and the vermin population fairly in check, but when they got too "familiar", dad showed them the business end of his 'thunder stick". We let them stay because as long as they were doing their job and nothing "extra", they were "wanted", not "needed".

So feel free to use dog or snake interchangeably, if you start being a problem instead of a solution, I don't really mind when any of you take an extended unpaid leave, but no, it's not hate, and by the way, there are many, many other "just plain folks" willing to go the extra mile, fight to the ultimate end with their bare hands or with whatever they can find, without body armor, without backup, without "qualified immunity", without pay, without thanks, without a thought for themselves, and they may not even be wearing so much as jeans or a T-shirt, or be particularly courteous, and might never be called professional or disciplined, but will also be there when it counts, and yes, some people hate them too!

I would like you to consider that you cannot provide me a safe home. You will never be able to provide me a safe home. I must make my own home as safe as I can and not rely on others. My safety, and the safety of my family, and the safety of my home and possessions are my responsibility alone. If you want to lend a helping hand, fine, but don't get in my way.

sidestreet

Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

sidestreet said:

it's more like when I was growing up out in the "sticks", we had dogs, and as long as they were providing some protection and security around the place, we fed them and kept them, even growing fond of them, but when they started causing problems, like killing the neighbors chickens, or biting the bread man, Dad, PUT THEM DOWN!

It was the same with snakes. Certain types we let be because they kept other types of snakes and the vermin population fairly in check, but when they got too "familiar", dad showed them the business end of his 'thunder stick". We let them stay because as long as they were doing their job and nothing "extra", they were "wanted", not "needed".

So feel free to use dog or snake interchangeably, if you start being a problem instead of a solution, I don't really mind when any of you take an extended unpaid leave, but no, it's not hate, and by the way, there are many, many other "just plain folks" willing to go the extra mile, fight to the ultimate end with their bare hands or with whatever they can find, without body armor, without backup, without "qualified immunity", without pay, without thanks, without a thought for themselves, and they may not even be wearing so much as jeans or a T-shirt, or be particularly courteous, and might never be called professional or disciplined, but will also be there when it counts, and yes, some people hate them too!

I would like you to consider that you cannot provide me a safe home. You will never be able to provide me a safe home. I must make my own home as safe as I can and not rely on others. My safety, and the safety of my family, and the safety of my home and possessions are my responsibility alone. If you want to lend a helping hand, fine, but don't get in my way.

sidestreet

Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

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Best response I've ever read Sidestreet!
Bravo!

sidestreet said:

it's more like when I was growing up out in the "sticks", we had dogs, and as long as they were providing some protection and security around the place, we fed them and kept them, even growing fond of them, but when they started causing problems, like killing the neighbors chickens, or biting the bread man, Dad, PUT THEM DOWN!

It was the same with snakes. Certain types we let be because they kept other types of snakes and the vermin population fairly in check, but when they got too "familiar", dad showed them the business end of his 'thunder stick". We let them stay because as long as they were doing their job and nothing "extra", they were "wanted", not "needed".

So feel free to use dog or snake interchangeably, if you start being a problem instead of a solution, I don't really mind when any of you take an extended unpaid leave, but no, it's not hate, and by the way, there are many, many other "just plain folks" willing to go the extra mile, fight to the ultimate end with their bare hands or with whatever they can find, without body armor, without backup, without "qualified immunity", without pay, without thanks, without a thought for themselves, and they may not even be wearing so much as jeans or a T-shirt, or be particularly courteous, and might never be called professional or disciplined, but will also be there when it counts, and yes, some people hate them too!

I would like you to consider that you cannot provide me a safe home. You will never be able to provide me a safe home. I must make my own home as safe as I can and not rely on others. My safety, and the safety of my family, and the safety of my home and possessions are my responsibility alone. If you want to lend a helping hand, fine, but don't get in my way.

sidestreet

Jeremiah 29 vs. 11-13

we are not equal, we will never be equal, but we must be relentless.

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I share your sentiments.