Serpa Holsters, yes? No?

wimwag · Dec 27, 2013

SD40VE said:
never had an issue with finger falling into trigger guard. when i draw my index finger goes along the frame right below the slide and never goes into the trigger guard. it comes down to personal preference. i have carried in my serpa for 13+ months with no issues. i am comfortable with it. and i have practiced alot. my LGS range made me do 15-20 "dry" runs before allowing me to pull from my holster and fire on their range. they said typically we dont allow drawing from a serpa but you seem to have it down to where you wont mess around and put a round through your leg.

try alot of holsters, find what you like. ask the LGS to supply a unloaded display model of your firearm, never pull out your firearm in a store. thats about all i can add to this one at this time

When drawing my finger always goes straight outwards and ends up just forward of the ejection port. But then again that's just the way I was taught. I imagine with the location of the release button that some people have shot themselves, but it seems to me that if I let my finger slide on the draw that it would correct and land where it.usually does.

I apologize for the mangled hand. It broke a few years ago dispatching a couple high schoolers that called themselves a gang and my doctor was way past retirement age.

JoeSparky · Dec 28, 2013

I've carried almost exclusively with a Serpa Blackhawk holster with SEVERAL different firearms for seems like at least the last 5 years. I like them. I've got a stress test story to share also..

1 Obese, old, diabetic Motorcyclist
1 800lb motorcycle at 70 MPH
1 OC Kimber Compact 1911 in a Serpa Holster strongside on MOTORCYCLE OPERATOR
1 Buck Mule deer and 2 doe standing still in the middle of the road blocking my intended direction of travel just after sunrise on a small 2 lane highway.
1 Son who for a short bit thought he just watched his father die.

Sound made at point of impact with Buck was VERY LOUD. Buck died-- point of impact by motorcycle was just behind his left shoulder flush on the ribs--- even severed his left hind leg from him. The feeling I had while flying down the roadway was MUCH better than the feeling of the road rash that began very shortly after. The best feeling was coming to a "safe" stop on the side of the road in the softest sand and brush you can imagine. The Motorcycle died. The son was relieved when his dad very clearly said to him (as the first words spoken post collision/tumble---) as I called him by name, "Call your mom, tell her what has happened, tell her I am alright!"

BTW--- the holstered firearm was STILL holstered and on my strong side hip with zero damage to the firearm. Holster has some abrasions near the muzzle end that extended a bit past the muzzle of the firearm but is still in use.

This was my Stress test of the retention ability of a Serpa Blackhawk holster. I do not recommend you attempt your own similar test as YMMV! LOL:lol:

wimwag · Dec 28, 2013

JoeSparky said:
I've carried almost exclusively with a Serpa Blackhawk holster with SEVERAL different firearms for seems like at least the last 5 years. I like them. I've got a stress test story to share also..

1 Obese, old, diabetic Motorcyclist
1 800lb motorcycle at 70 MPH
1 OC Kimber Compact 1911 in a Serpa Holster strongside on MOTORCYCLE OPERATOR
1 Buck Mule deer and 2 doe standing still in the middle of the road blocking my intended direction of travel just after sunrise on a small 2 lane highway.
1 Son who for a short bit thought he just watched his father die.

Sound made at point of impact with Buck was VERY LOUD. Buck died-- point of impact by motorcycle was just behind his left shoulder flush on the ribs--- even severed his left hind leg from him. The feeling I had while flying down the roadway was MUCH better than the feeling of the road rash that began very shortly after. The best feeling was coming to a "safe" stop on the side of the road in the softest sand and brush you can imagine. The Motorcycle died. The son was relieved when his dad very clearly said to him (as the first words spoken post collision/tumble---) as I called him by name, "Call your mom, tell her what has happened, tell her I am alright!"

BTW--- the holstered firearm was STILL holstered and on my strong side hip with zero damage to the firearm. Holster has some abrasions near the muzzle end that extended a bit past the muzzle of the firearm but is still in use.

This was my Stress test of the retention ability of a Serpa Blackhawk holster. I do not recommend you attempt your own similar test as YMMV! LOL:lol:

Sold. Lol

nousdefions794 · Dec 28, 2013

No

I've used them and trained people that used them. One thing I've seen is regardless of how skilled you are, there is potential of a unintentional discharge when drawing the firearm. With Simmunitions and during combatives training guys pushed too hard on the finger release mechanism and shot themselves. These guys were well trained, but the induced stress causes the body to tense up a little more. On a live range, I've also seen two well trained individuals shoot themselves trying to draw fast. Why? Because of stress and they were trying to go fast. Two things that "might" happen in a real gunfight.

The other negative is that if something gets stuck behind the release button, you're screwed. I've seen this happen three times. First time I was training a military unit and the guys went prone. Later when they tried to draw, half of them could not get their pistols out because because dirt and pebbles got behind the release button. Another time we were in the mountains and one of the guys fell down. When he started cleaning snow off of himself, he tried to un-holster his pistol to knock snow off of it. Snow got stuck behind the release button. We were shooting from cars and one of the guys couldn't get his pistol out because glass had fell behind the release button.

When many civilian shooting courses and FLETC ban the use of the SERPA, that's an indicator. There are plenty of suitable replacements available.

flhrci · Dec 28, 2013

Wow JoeSparky!

David

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Grapeshot · Dec 28, 2013

nousdefions794 said:
I've used them and trained people that used them. One thing I've seen is regardless of how skilled you are, there is potential of a unintentional discharge when drawing the firearm. With Simmunitions and during combatives training guys pushed too hard on the finger release mechanism and shot themselves. These guys were well trained, but the induced stress causes the body to tense up a little more. On a live range, I've also seen two well trained individuals shoot themselves trying to draw fast. Why? Because of stress and they were trying to go fast. Two things that "might" happen in a real gunfight.

The other negative is that if something gets stuck behind the release button, you're screwed. I've seen this happen three times. First time I was training a military unit and the guys went prone. Later when they tried to draw, half of them could not get their pistols out because because dirt and pebbles got behind the release button. Another time we were in the mountains and one of the guys fell down. When he started cleaning snow off of himself, he tried to un-holster his pistol to knock snow off of it. Snow got stuck behind the release button. We were shooting from cars and one of the guys couldn't get his pistol out because glass had fell behind the release button.

When many civilian shooting courses and FLETC ban the use of the SERPA, that's an indicator. There are plenty of suitable replacements available.

There are lots of "war stories" out there - some are about the Serpa. Blackhawk changed the design of the CQC holster to correct the early perceived problem. I have seen Serpas packed with sand and mud - so bad that the slide was scratched when the gun was drawn.

I submit that any tight holster can be jammed with stones or sticks; also that there have been a significant number of persons who have shot themselves with non-Serpa holsters.

There are those who have gone out of their way to malign the Serpa. They are entitled to their opinion - I and thousands of satisfied owners are entitled to ours......I own four and daily carry one I have customized.

Grapeshot · Dec 28, 2013

nousdefions794 said:
I've used them and trained people that used them. One thing I've seen is regardless of how skilled you are, there is potential of a unintentional discharge when drawing the firearm. With Simmunitions and during combatives training guys pushed too hard on the finger release mechanism and shot themselves. These guys were well trained, but the induced stress causes the body to tense up a little more. On a live range, I've also seen two well trained individuals shoot themselves trying to draw fast. Why? Because of stress and they were trying to go fast. Two things that "might" happen in a real gunfight.

The other negative is that if something gets stuck behind the release button, you're screwed. I've seen this happen three times. First time I was training a military unit and the guys went prone. Later when they tried to draw, half of them could not get their pistols out because because dirt and pebbles got behind the release button. Another time we were in the mountains and one of the guys fell down. When he started cleaning snow off of himself, he tried to un-holster his pistol to knock snow off of it. Snow got stuck behind the release button. We were shooting from cars and one of the guys couldn't get his pistol out because glass had fell behind the release button.

When many civilian shooting courses and FLETC ban the use of the SERPA, that's an indicator. There are plenty of suitable replacements available.

There are lots of "war stories" out there - some are about the Serpa. Blackhawk changed the design of the CQC holster to correct the early perceived problem. I have seen Serpas packed with sand and mud - so bad that the slide was scratched when the gun was drawn.

I submit that any tight holster can be jammed with stones or sticks; also that there have been a significant number of persons who have shot themselves with non-Serpa holsters.

There are those who have gone out of their way to malign the Serpa. They are entitled to their opinion - I and thousands of satisfied owners are entitled to ours......I own four and daily carry one I have customized.

.

JoeSparky · Dec 28, 2013

flhrci said:
Wow JoeSparky!

David

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

For the record, I am not a superman. I did receive some injuries. Road rash to both knees and both hands, a severely abraded helmet, a heavy full grain leather jacket with many abrasions and a few blown out seams (been repaired and STILL IN USE), and a broken right knee (lateral tibial plateau fracture) and 4 1/2 months off of work for the knee with the first of two surgeries.

But, my Serpa still works and I like it!:banana:

nousdefions794 · Dec 28, 2013

Grapeshot said:
I submit that any tight holster can be jammed with stones or sticks;

Might be, but I've never seen it or heard of it. I would venture to say that any holster with a locking mechanism, could potentially not un-lock. It has probably happened, but since I have heard many stories and personally seen it happen (3 times), I would call it an indicator.

Grapeshot said:
also that there have been a significant number of persons who have shot themselves with non-Serpa holsters.

There have, but there isn't correlation pointing to a specific holster (except the Serpa). I have also never heard of ranges (Civilian & Federal Law Enforcement) banning a specific holster. Here's a holster study conducted by instructors that train hundreds of people a month:
http://www.fletc.gov/reference/publ...m/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf/view
http://www.fletc.gov/reference/publ...g-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf

Grapeshot said:
There are those who have gone out of their way to malign the Serpa. They are entitled to their opinion - I and thousands of satisfied owners are entitled to ours......I own four and daily carry one I have customized.

I've used the Serpa without incident. It does a great job of retaining the pistol, even when you don't want it to ;-). I'm not trying to malign the Serpa, but only sharing my experiences. Your customized Serpa looks great.

golddigger14s · Dec 31, 2013

I have a CQC on a paddle for my 1911, and Taurus 24/7. I'm very happy with them.

mobiushky · Dec 31, 2013

nousdefions794 said:
Might be, but I've never seen it or heard of it. I would venture to say that any holster with a locking mechanism, could potentially not un-lock. It has probably happened, but since I have heard many stories and personally seen it happen (3 times), I would call it an indicator.

There have, but there isn't correlation pointing to a specific holster (except the Serpa). I have also never heard of ranges (Civilian & Federal Law Enforcement) banning a specific holster. Here's a holster study conducted by instructors that train hundreds of people a month:
http://www.fletc.gov/reference/publ...m/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf/view
http://www.fletc.gov/reference/publ...g-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf

I've used the Serpa without incident. It does a great job of retaining the pistol, even when you don't want it to ;-). I'm not trying to malign the Serpa, but only sharing my experiences. Your customized Serpa looks great.

You're a Serpa basher. What do you own stock in a competitor? You're just lying. You hate little kids. (All of which I've been called, well except the little kids one, for saying essentially the same things you say.)

Shortly, I expect the Serpa apologists to dump on you like you just ate an endangered baby seal.

The fact is, all holsters have unique challenges and idiosyncrasies. The Serpa has it's unique challenges. People should at the very least be told the truth so they can learn how to avoid them.

WalkingWolf · Dec 31, 2013

I am a logic, and common sense apologist! Yes I admit it, I am hung up on common sense!

If you don't want a gun to go bang, DON'T put your finger on the trigger. Simple really!

wimwag · Dec 31, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
I am a logic, and common sense apologist! Yes I admit it, I am hung up on common sense!

If you don't want a gun to go bang, DON'T put your finger on the trigger. Simple really!

Damn right.

So I bought one yesterday and I've been drawing an unloaded gun from it and have yet to pull the trigger. I'm not seeing how anyone who knows that you keep your finger outside the trigger guard until ready to fire could shoot themselves. I also bought a Lvl 1 for a secondary and have the same results.

I guess this thread served its' purpose. Thanks for the input.

mobiushky · Dec 31, 2013

wimwag said:
Damn right.

So I bought one yesterday and I've been drawing an unloaded gun from it and have yet to pull the trigger. I'm not seeing how anyone who knows that you keep your finger outside the trigger guard until ready to fire could shoot themselves. I also bought a Lvl 1 for a secondary and have the same results.

I guess this thread served its' purpose. Thanks for the input.

Know the failure mechanism. Not seeing it now does not mean it doesn't exist. Here's how to replicate it. Make sure you unload. Also, be clear there are a lot of mistakes made to do it, so it's not like it's "built in" to the holster. But do this:

1) Draw the pistol without fully depressing the release. Imagine if you will that in your haste to draw you miss the button slightly or for some reason forget to press it. That will lock the gun into the holster, which is what it's supposed to do.

2) While you are still pulling up, suddenly realize that you have forgotten to press the button and trying pressing it. While you are applying upward pressure, the button will not depress. Again, that's the way it's supposed to work.

3) press REALLY hard on the button while pulling up and then realize that you have to release the upward pressure. Without releasing the pressure on the button, push down on the gun to re-seat it. That will unlock the whole thing.

4) while still pressing way too hard on the release button, draw the gun out. Not every time, but sometimes your finger will slip into the trigger guard and could pull the trigger.

I'm not saying this because it's a "going to happen" event. Just saying it so you know why it has happened and how to avoid it. Bottom line to me is, practice the correct method all the time and you should never have a problem. Doing it right, you shouldn't ever see the issue. Just be aware that under a fight or flight scenario when the adrenaline hits, you will lose a lot of fine motor skill. That is not the time to be trying to draw smooth and clean. You should have that so practiced that you aren't thinking about it.

PS, I can replicate this on my Serpa at will, but I have to think it through because it does require that you make a lot of mistakes.

wimwag · Dec 31, 2013

mobiushky said:
Know the failure mechanism. Not seeing it now does not mean it doesn't exist. Here's how to replicate it. Make sure you unload. Also, be clear there are a lot of mistakes made to do it, so it's not like it's "built in" to the holster. But do this:

1) Draw the pistol without fully depressing the release. Imagine if you will that in your haste to draw you miss the button slightly or for some reason forget to press it. That will lock the gun into the holster, which is what it's supposed to do.

2) While you are still pulling up, suddenly realize that you have forgotten to press the button and trying pressing it. While you are applying upward pressure, the button will not depress. Again, that's the way it's supposed to work.

3) press REALLY hard on the button while pulling up and then realize that you have to release the upward pressure. Without releasing the pressure on the button, push down on the gun to re-seat it. That will unlock the whole thing.

4) while still pressing way too hard on the release button, draw the gun out. Not every time, but sometimes your finger will slip into the trigger guard and could pull the trigger.

I'm not saying this because it's a "going to happen" event. Just saying it so you know why it has happened and how to avoid it. Bottom line to me is, practice the correct method all the time and you should never have a problem. Doing it right, you shouldn't ever see the issue. Just be aware that under a fight or flight scenario when the adrenaline hits, you will lose a lot of fine motor skill. That is not the time to be trying to draw smooth and clean. You should have that so practiced that you aren't thinking about it.

PS, I can replicate this on my Serpa at will, but I have to think it through because it does require that you make a lot of mistakes.

One could make the same mistake on a $12 sportster holster with the snap on the side by not unsnapping it all the way or getting the strap caught in her hand and then going all gorilla on the handle and shooting themselves. It's not product specific. It's training specific.

Holsters are made by different manufacturers for the same model of firearm. Just because they all don't behave alike doesn't make a negligent discharge the manufacturer's fault. After all, doesn't Skil make a slightly different jigsaw than Craftsman? How many people get used to one kind of power tool and then get hurt using a different brand? Blaming the holster for you shooting yourself is like blaming Sergei Mosin for the millions murdered in the Russian Revolution. Or like anti's blaming YOU for Sandy Hook. Quit blaming the object.

wimwag · Dec 31, 2013

mobiushky said:
PS, I can replicate this on my Serpa at will, but I have to think it through because it does require that you make a lot of mistakes.

Ummmm...please. Stop...

zack991 · Dec 31, 2013

I have used a Serpa since 2008 ever day for work and NEVER had a problem. People that have had issue with them more often then not never trained with them and want to blame the tool and not themselves. Because they are so High Speed/ SPEC OPS that they would never be the reason for it to cause them a problem. They are a very reliable holster, that if you train like you should with any other holster, you wont have a issue.

lpb8733 · Jan 1, 2014

I carry my Glock in a Serpa.

I originally had the Serpa CQC, but didn't like the way it felt. I carry in a level 2 Serpa Duty holster. I like the fuller coverage/protection for my firearm vs the CQC. I didn't like the amount of drop it had from my belt, so I've mounted it on the CQC beltloop (I don't like paddles - I find them uncomfortable). It rides a little higher than the CQC did, but I find it's more comfortable for me and less in-the-way.

My advice is figure out whatever works best for you. If you like the Serpa, go with it. If not, then don't. Experiment until you find what works best for you. There will be naysayers and complainers regardless of what you choose.

SD40VE · Jan 2, 2014

wimwag said:
When drawing my finger always goes straight outwards and ends up just forward of the ejection port. But then again that's just the way I was taught. I imagine with the location of the release button that some people have shot themselves, but it seems to me that if I let my finger slide on the draw that it would correct and land where it.usually does.

I apologize for the mangled hand. It broke a few years ago dispatching a couple high schoolers that called themselves a gang and my doctor was way past retirement age.

nice gun! looks like a SD just like mine. i draw the same way. my finger usually ends up on the textured dot under the slide. it had yet to "fall" in the trigger guard and discharge my firearm

wimwag · Jan 2, 2014

SD40VE said:
nice gun! looks like a SD just like mine. i draw the same way. my finger usually ends up on the textured dot under the slide. it had yet to "fall" in the trigger guard and discharge my firearm

Why thank you! And it is! How do you like the trigger pull? I've heard a lot of complaints about it but personally have no problem with it. It's a DAO, long pulls are to be expected right? I wish there was a fix for the magazine rattle though. It's caused by that free floating piece between the spring and the floor plate.

Serpa Holsters, yes? No?

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