Why is Utah a GREEN state?

OC for ME said:

So, does Utah deserve "green state" status?

Side note, a Glock with a loaded magazine inserted would may qualify as having two separate acts (meaning operator overt actions) to fire unless you consider the slide movement rearward and then forward to charge the weapons as two separate acts. or the "safety" is considered a seperate act after charging the weapon. Please describe the apparent two actions that must take place for a Glock to satisfy the requirements of the statute.

It appears that the cited law needs to be changed.....this is likely a understatement.

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JoeSparky said:

Gil223
What I described in para2 is most definitely NOT a half cocked position. Look at the NAA website and their description of this safety feature on their mini revolvers.

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Gil223 said:

I have seen the NAA line, and you are correct about the "safety slot" (I just haven't known anybody OC'ing a NAA .22 rimfire Mini as their EDCWOC). I am unaware of any medium-to-large bore revolvers that have the safety slot feature. Can you direct me to one? Pax...

P.S. I am NOT KNOCKING YOUR CHOICE - I once owned a Colt 4th Model Derringer .22 short (people get so sensitive about innocuous comments)! Everyone has the right to choose - OC/CC, Make, Model and Caliber - for themselves.

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Gil223 said:

1. Rack the slide (it goes forward on its own, as part of a single mechanical action)
2. Depress the trigger safety and continue to squeeze the trigger (mechanical actions 2 & 3. The trigger cannot be moved without the prior and separate mechanical action of depressing the trigger safety. Glocks also have 2 completely internal safeties, the "striker safety" and the "drop safety") Pax...

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OC for ME said:

Thanks.

After your explanation a 1911 in condition one would/should also meet the requirement for two mechanical actions; when the grip safety is engaged when the weapon is drawn and when the thumb safety is disengaged. Though I could be wrong on this. The law you cited remains a mystery to me even after your explanation. This mystery is on me and not your Sir.

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(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause.....

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OC for ME said:

OK, I need to read a little more carefully. Condition one for a 1911 will likely get you in trouble in Utah. But, the second clause reads in part.So, it seems that a condition one 1911 is not good. It seems that condition three is the only way to meet the requirements of the law if no license is held by the citizen. Clumsily written law is a understatement. Get rid of clause one and retain clause two seems to be a better written law.

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Gil223 said:

Any one of the three conditions of UC 76-10-502 which is not met puts the non-permitted OC'er on the wrong side of the law as it is written. The absence of all-encompassing specificity is not especially surprising, considering that across the country laws are written primarily by lawyers (most legislatures are composed primarily of lawyers, as is our Congress) without consulting acknowledged "firearms experts" (gunsmiths and people like Massad Ayoob). OTOH, the more words that are used, the more obscure the intended meaning becomes. If the Utah Legislature was to try to list all the exceptions and inclusions presented by all our... let's say modern day handguns (and define those simply as any firearm using smokeless powder for propellent)... 76-10-502 would probably be 3 pages long by itself! Simplify, simplify, simplify... that's how we make written communications - not just laws - understandable. But, if We the People could actually understand the laws without the assistance of a lawyer, they would be writing themselves out of some money-making opportunities.

For the purpose of this new discussion, let's ignore UC 76-10-502(3) completely, since I seriously doubt that anybody in OCDO is OC'ing a BP pistol as their EDCWOC for s/d. Let us focus on (1) and just mention (2) (which is almost a repetition of (1) except for the final phrase - "...whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired." There, (2) has been mentioned.

TigerLily's stated concern was - "According to your page: http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=103 Utah requires a permit to o.c. Did something change? Or am I misunderstanding the chart?" The answer to her question is No, No... and Yes. No, Utah does not require a permit to OC; no, nothing has changed in that regard, and yes, you did misunderstand the chart under Utah law. The legend for the chart is titled "Open Carry of A Loaded Gun", and since UC76-10-502 declares: "When weapon deemed loaded. (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position." Inasmuch as the Utah Unloaded condition is unusual in that it only applies to OC by those without a valid, recognized permit, and defines unloaded as requiring "two or more mechanical actions" to discharge a pistol/revolver, there can be no round chambered REGARDLESS of the number of mechanical actions it may take to cause it to discharge. If there is a round in the chamber it IS in the firing position.

You are correct in that our law - as written - is beyond "clumsy"... it borders on crippled! But, as insufficient and vague as it may be, it is much better than the laws that say "Open carry of handguns in public is forbidden." I can give our legislature credit for their attempt, but they get "no cigar". Pax...

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. Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.

(1) Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
(a) in or on a vehicle, unless:
(i) the vehicle is in the person's lawful possession; or
(ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle;
(b) on a public street; or
(c) in a posted prohibited area.
(2) Subsection (1)(a) does not apply to a minor under 18 years of age, since a minor under 18 years of age may not carry a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle.
(3) Notwithstanding Subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii), a person may not possess a loaded rifle, shotgun, or muzzle-loading rifle in a vehicle.
(4) A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.

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76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

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