Slavery is bad, okay What is slavery then?

Primus said:

Last I checked.... slaves weren't allowed to leave the plantation.

Last I checked we can walk across the border for free of charge. Or get crazy and buy a plane/boat ticket and go across the pond. Rescind your citizenship and be tax free.

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Then apparently you haven't checked in quite a while, Primus. When I was younger I walked (and drove) across the border free of charge several times, but no longer - now our illustrious government REQUIRES us to pay for the privilege of leaving the country. (Technically a passport is required to reenter the country, not to leave it - but I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one...)

Citizens shouldn't be forced to pay to acquire a document such as this simply to leave the country - I feel it is ridiculous, invasive, and unwarranted! It's not slavery, but it doesn't exactly look like freedom either... Back when it was voluntary, I had no problem with passports - but I also never had a need for one, since it wasn't required to enter/leave Canada and Mexico.

Now granted, since this went into effect I haven't had a good enough reason to leave the United States - but once a sufficient reason presents itself (wife wants to vacation in Jamaica or the Bahamas), apparently I will need to reconsider my convictions.

Have Gun - Will Carry said:

Then apparently you haven't checked in quite a while, Primus. When I was younger I walked (and drove) across the border free of charge several times, but no longer - now our illustrious government REQUIRES us to pay for the privilege of leaving the country. (Technically a passport is required to reenter the country, not to leave it - but I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one...)

Citizens shouldn't be forced to pay to acquire a document such as this simply to leave the country - I feel it is ridiculous, invasive, and unwarranted! It's not slavery, but it doesn't exactly look like freedom either... Back when it was voluntary, I had no problem with passports - but I also never had a need for one, since it wasn't required to enter/leave Canada and Mexico.

Now granted, since this went into effect I haven't had a good enough reason to leave the United States - but once a sufficient reason presents itself (wife wants to vacation in Jamaica or the Bahamas), apparently I will need to reconsider my convictions.

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So your claiming that If you did not have your passport on you they would not let you leave? Last time I went to Canada the Canadians checked my passport upon admittance INTO their country. I don't even recall it being us border checking us.

Cite?

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You are a slave if you can rightfully be compelled against your will to work without being able to claim compensation for or the fruits of that labor.

If you are in debt, you are a slave. You pay for your 'freedom' monthly, for instance.

I do not believe Romans Chapter 13 commands Christians to blindly subject themselves to earthly governments, nor does it command Christians to pay taxes to those governments. Jesus does not answer the question directed to him as to whether or not Jews should have payed taxes to Caesar. Jesus essentially says to pay what is due, to pay what you owe and to whom it is owed. He does not state that Jews owe Caesar tax money. From what I read, he probably did not answer the question on purpose, as those asking were not looking for the answer to the question, they were attempting to entrap Jesus. I could be wrong.

From the book of Mark

And they sent unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they said unto him, “Master, we know that you are true, and care for no man: for you regard not the person of men, but teach the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give?”

But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, “Why do you tempt me? Bring me a denarion, that I may see it.”

And they brought it. And he said unto them, “Whose is this image and superscription?”

And they said unto him, “Caesar’s.”

And Jesus answering said unto them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

And they marveled at him.

stealthyeliminator said:

You are a slave if you can rightfully be compelled against your will to work without being able to claim compensation for or the fruits of that labor.

If you are in debt, you are a slave. You pay for your 'freedom' monthly, for instance.

I do not believe Romans Chapter 13 commands Christians to blindly subject themselves to earthly governments, nor does it command Christians to pay taxes to those governments. Jesus does not answer the question directed to him as to whether or not Jews should have payed taxes to Caesar. Jesus essentially says to pay what is due, to pay what you owe and to whom it is owed. He does not state that Jews owe Caesar tax money. From what I read, he probably did not answer the question on purpose, as those asking were not looking for the answer to the question, they were attempting to entrap Jesus. I could be wrong.

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Well the key words are "against your will". The other key phrase is "nonsuch thing as a free lunch".

So.... partake in community. Pay community. Don't like community. Leave community. But... don't live in community and not pay community. Then you are like the rest on "assistance" and just living off of others. Even if you provide your own shelter and food you'll be taking SOMETHING from the community. If you don't pay for that something, then your in trouble...

Not sure how Jesus would have clarified that. If you get him on the line let us know.

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Have Gun - Will Carry said:

Then apparently you haven't checked in quite a while, Primus. When I was younger I walked (and drove) across the border free of charge several times, but no longer - now our illustrious government REQUIRES us to pay for the privilege of leaving the country. (Technically a passport is required to reenter the country, not to leave it - but I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one...)

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Primus said:

So your claiming that If you did not have your passport on you they would not let you leave? Last time I went to Canada the Canadians checked my passport upon admittance INTO their country. I don't even recall it being us border checking us.

Cite?

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No cite - I said "I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one", meaning that's the way I thought things were being done.

I never claimed to be an expert on this subject, so if I'm wrong, fine - but I would have sworn that's what I had heard, that passports weren't being required by Canadian border guards to enter, but by the American guards in order to leave. I have no direct experience with the new requirements - haven't been to Canada in at least 10-12 years.

Have Gun - Will Carry said:

No cite - I said "I understand the border guards won't allow you to cross into another country without one", meaning that's the way I thought things were being done.

I never claimed to be an expert on this subject, so if I'm wrong, fine - but I would have sworn that's what I had heard, that passports weren't being required by Canadian border guards to enter, but by the American guards in order to leave. I have no direct experience with the new requirements - haven't been to Canada in at least 10-12 years.

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Got it. Then request to cite is rescinded. Thanks for the clarification.

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Freedom1Man said:

Slaves could own guns but they needed permission to do so. (see form 4473).

Please explain which taxes you pay, and how you pay them, that go toward those things that you claim.

What taxes are you talking about?

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I would say "freemen cannot legally be required to complete form 4473".

In fact many of my guns were obtained w/o completing any gov't form, getting gov't approval, ...don't need it. I'm a freeman.

Also remember that Jesus said to heed the Old Testament's teachings on self defense.

stealthyeliminator said:

<snip>

But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, “Why do you tempt me? Bring me a denarion, that I may see it.”

And they brought it. And he said unto them, “Whose is this image and superscription?”

And they said unto him, “Caesar’s.”

And Jesus answering said unto them, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”

And they marveled at him.

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A priest, rabbi, and a preacher are discussing how to divvy up the days donations.

The priest draws a circle on the ground and says "We toss the money up into the air and that which falls within the circle is Gods, and that which falls outside the circle we keep."

The rabbi says "No, we toss the money into the air and that which falls within the circle we keep, that which falls outside the circle belongs to God."

The preacher says "We toss the money into the air and what God wants he will catch before it hits the ground."

beebobby said:

If you cannot be bought or sold against your will, then you are not a slave. Comparing having to pay taxes as part of being a responsible citizen to being a real slave is a bit of a stretch.

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A responsible citizen follows the. I cannot find any law making my earnings the subject of any tax.

Now a socialist will pitch the same line that you're pitching. So which socialist camp are you from? You're Marxist by chance?

So, you're saying that I have no rights to private property. If I earn it you're saying that it can taken away and given to someone else.

You are being bought and sold, you just don't realize it. You have a Socialist Slave Number that you're happy to use.

Primus said:

Well the key words are "against your will". The other key phrase is "nonsuch thing as a free lunch".

So.... partake in community. Pay community. Don't like community. Leave community. But... don't live in community and not pay community. Then you are like the rest on "assistance" and just living off of others. Even if you provide your own shelter and food you'll be taking SOMETHING from the community. If you don't pay for that something, then your in trouble...

Not sure how Jesus would have clarified that. If you get him on the line let us know.

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lol. This makes no ******* sense what-so-ever. I mean, I see how you got there, but when in violation of common sense one must take a step back and analyze from additional perspectives. I don't owe someone something just because I've indirectly benefited from their actions or existence.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. That doesn't mean you have to pay for literally everything. Under that logic, I should be able to impose a tax on you because I have a tree in my yard and you don't. I'm producing oxygen that you are using. Pay up, or suffocate, *******.

Freedom1Man said:

For questions about the federal taxes please click here watch the linked videos and then ask.

But, slavery, isn't that when someone else owns the fruits of your labor?

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Nope. Slavery is when someone claims ownership of your being, not when they claim ownership of some portion of the fruits of your labors.

The fruit of a prisoners labor belong to the the state, but prisoners are not slaves.
Some portion of the fruit of a serfs labors belong to the land owner, but they are not slaves.

Is it when someone else owns your body? (if they own your body then they own your labor)

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Got it in two.

What would you do if you owned (a) slave(s) (how would you care for them)?

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I would set them free, and try to help them with getting a start in life from there if they needed help.

What is the percentage of your labors that have to be owned by someone else before it's slavery?

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Irrelevant, as slavery isn't defined by ownership of someones labors, but by ownership of their being.

Do slaves have natural rights or granted (civil)"rights?"

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Yes. All humans have natural rights. Societies that allow slavery are using the threat of force to deny access to those rights to the slaves, but the slaves still have those rights.

Can slaves carry weapons (guns) or do they need the permission of their master (the state)?

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Yes they can carry weapons. With permission of their master if subservient, or without it when attempting to forcibly reclaim access to their human rights since at that point they have no master.

marshaul said:

Well, I think that's ultimately the reason slavery is an incomplete analogy. The "freedom" to permanently and irrevocably go somewhere else entirely was certainly not available to any slaves in history.

That doesn't mean that the appeal to consent is irrelevant. The lack of consent is, ultimately, the fundamental wrong of slavery. Consider: there are certainly mutually-voluntary arrangements which, in many respects, resemble slavery (live-in, dependent employees still exist). And there were certainly slaves who were "well-treated", aside from the systematic disregard of their will/consent.

Ultimately, living under governance is not slavery. But the fact remains that all the minds in history have yet to deeply and meaningfully reconcile individual consent with government. The best we've done is pay lip-service to consent – admitting that it's important, and then turning right around and tacitly admitting (usually in the same document) that government must, in practice, disregard consent.

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If the slave is just happy enough to stay where he is because he's allowed to keep some of the fruits of his labor, is he not still a slave?

Living under governance is not slavery, but confiscating the fruits of your labor by that government is. At what point of confiscation does one become a slave? 10%? 50%? 100%?

arentol said:

SNIP
Irrelevant, as slavery isn't defined by ownership of someones labors, but by ownership of their being.


SNIP.

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A non-slave has the right to the fruits of their labors because those fruits are an extension of themselves.

You cannot claim to have the right to the someone's labor unless you own them.

@arentol - If prisoners are not slaves then there is no such thing as a slave.

Freedom1Man said:

A non-slave has the right to the fruits of their labors because those fruits are an extension of themselves.

You cannot claim to have the right to the someone's labor unless you own them.

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This makes sense. The confiscation of their property is proof of ownership. Is it being implied that one must have a bill of sale to be a slave owner?

georg jetson said:

@arentol - If prisoners are not slaves then there is no such thing as a slave.

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I believe you are on to something.

https://www.google.com/#q=what+is+the+difference+between+enslavement+and+imprisonment

georg jetson said:

This makes sense. The confiscation of their property is proof of ownership. Is it being implied that one must have a bill of sale to be a slave owner?

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No bill of sale required.

"They Own it All Including You"

Part of the problem is the money system that we are using is not real and is unconstitutional

stealthyeliminator said:

lol. This makes no ******* sense what-so-ever. I mean, I see how you got there, but when in violation of common sense one must take a step back and analyze from additional perspectives. I don't owe someone something just because I've indirectly benefited from their actions or existence.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. That doesn't mean you have to pay for literally everything. Under that logic, I should be able to impose a tax on you because I have a tree in my yard and you don't. I'm producing oxygen that you are using. Pay up, or suffocate, *******.

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So you don't owe anyone for your water? Do you have a well you pump from? If your house catches fire do expect FD to come put it out? Do you fly to work? Or drive on streets paved and maintained by others? Did you go to school? Do you eat food made by someone else? Etc. Etc. Etc...... these are some of many DIRECT benefits.

Your comparison of "my tree makes oxygen for you so pay" is pretty pathetic my friend.

And again..... don't like it? VOTE to have the tax rate zero. MOVE to a different place with less taxes. And some places allow you to opt of services.

Remember a funny story about a guy who didn't want to pay for FD. Well one day is house caught fire. FD showed up and made sure it didn't catch other peoples houses on fire and let his burn..... he was pissed.

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Primus said:

So you don't owe anyone for your water? Do you have a well you pump from? If your house catches fire do expect FD to come put it out? Do you fly to work? Or drive on streets paved and maintained by others? Did you go to school? Do you eat food made by someone else? Etc. Etc. Etc...... these are some of many DIRECT benefits.

Your comparison of "my tree makes oxygen for you so pay" is pretty pathetic my friend.

And again..... don't like it? VOTE to have the tax rate zero. MOVE to a different place with less taxes. And some places allow you to opt of services.

Remember a funny story about a guy who didn't want to pay for FD. Well one day is house caught fire. FD showed up and made sure it didn't catch other peoples houses on fire and let his burn..... he was pissed.

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You said that I should pay society for being a "part of" society, but then you list specific services and goods that I should pay for. What gives?

If I request to trade currency for a service, or if I request to trade currency for a good, and then someone performs that service or provides that good, then I owe them the agreed upon amount of currency. You are saying this equates to taxation. It does not.

When I go to the grocery store to buy an apple, the community does not hold a ******* vote to determine how much the apple costs. Nor am I charged for the apple if I do not agree to purchase the apple from the store owner. This, with taxation, is, as they might say, apples and oranges.

I cannot deliver an apple to your house and point a gun at you and say "here is your apple, that's $1 please" when you have never agreed to purchase an apple from me for $1 any more than I can plant a tree in my yard and then go to your house and demand compensation for the oxygen that my tree has produced.

If I cannot do these things, then why should I plus my neighbor be able to? Or if not just the two of us, why should I, plus my neighbor, plus his neighbor be able to? Or if not just the three of us...

Is it justified because you decided to purchase land and live generally near us? Based on what principle or moral would this be true?