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OC @ school sports games?

OCinBlaine

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
25
Location
Blaine, WA
So, I have a couple of questions actually. If I drop my kid off at school, I can OC or I have to CC? I understand I can't go inside buildings, what about covered areas? What is the amount of time I can linger after I drop off my kid? And how early before they get out of school can I be there? How about soccer games? Friday night football games? What if I'm picking my kid up after a sports game or an assembly or concert? Two of my kids are in rec league soccer and have soccer practice a our school districts satellite soccer fields. What's the law say about all this? I'm licensed for conceal, but prefer OC, do I have to pay a lawyer to find out the legality of all of this!? Help please

Cheers!

OCinBlaine

P.S. I know grammar and punctuation are not a skill I do well.
 

Vitaeus

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
596
Location
Bremerton, Washington
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280

applicable section...

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

(b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

(c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

(d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

(f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

(g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

my reading of this is you leave it in your car, following the rule in this and in http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

"(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle."
 

OCinBlaine

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
25
Location
Blaine, WA
Well, I'm picking up my student from his soccer game, but I'm overly punctual and came an hour and a half early? Am I still allowed to carry at the soccer fields?


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arentol

New member
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
383
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
If you try that you will be arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. Section 3(e) may be poorly written, but it is clear enough that it means much less than 90 minutes. As far as I am aware this law has not been tested, so even coming on campus for 3 minutes to genuinely drop off a child while OC is likely to get you arrested and prosecuted. You might get off on the conviction but it wouldn't be worth the time, effort, stress, or money it would cost you.

Just forget about it except maybe as a mental exercise for fun on these forums, because it isn't going to be worth it if you actually try it.

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OCinBlaine

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
25
Location
Blaine, WA
Well, that's not going to happen, but your defeatous opinion has been noted. I will for sure not just claim ignorance and go to my sons soccer game all OC in everyone's face, how ever, I will be getting clarification from people who matter, and who care.

Cheers!

But you are more then welcome to just play games on forums and give up with out even trying.

We need to normalize our community.


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Vitaeus

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
596
Location
Bremerton, Washington
I don't particularly like the interpretation from my earlier post, but leaving it locked in the car seems the best choice available under the current set of laws.
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280

applicable section...

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) Any student or employee of a private military academy when on the property of the academy;

(b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

(c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

(d) Any person while the person is participating in a firearms or air gun competition approved by the school or school district;

(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

(f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

(g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

my reading of this is you leave it in your car, following the rule in this and in http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

"(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle."

I absolutely think you could lawfully walk your kid to his classroom per RCW 9.41.280 because of (e), (e) stands alone as an exception and does not depend on any of the other exceptions IMHO. However I would not want to be the test case.

The bigger problem if you were OC but not CC would be RCW 9.41.270 in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons. I think OC would easily meet the warrants alarm for the safety of other persons in just about every case one would lose that in court.

Do not try this at home or at a school.
 

Vitaeus

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
596
Location
Bremerton, Washington
(6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

There is more applicable sections, you need to read the entirety of the RCW, my quote was not ALL the applicable portions, our RCW are short compared to most other states, but they do tend to run on.
 

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
AGO_1994_No_001
FIREARMS--WEAPONS--SCHOOLS--Possession of firearms in facilities used exclusively by
schools
RCW 9.41.280 prohibits possession of firearms in areas of facilities while being used exclusively by
public or private schools. An area of a facility is used exclusively by a school when the school has
sole possession, control, or use of an area of the facility, regardless of the duration of the use.
* * * * * * * * * *
January 12, 1994
Honorable Linda Smith
State Senator, District 18
205 Institutions Building, MS 40418
Olympia, WA 98504-0418
Cite as: AGO 1994 No. 1


Dear Senator Smith:
By letter previously acknowledged you requested our interpretation of Engrossed Substitute
Senate Bill (ESSB) 5307, which was enacted as Laws of 1993, ch. 347. ESSB 5307 amended RCW
9.41.280 to prohibit the possession of firearms (and other weapons) in "areas of facilities while
being used exclusively by public or private schools". Your question, which asks for an
interpretation of the quoted language, is:
Does "exclusively" mean prolonged exclusive use as when a school rents a building
for an extended period solely for school activities, like an off campus classroom, or
does it include sporadic use of a multi-use facility such as the Kingdome during the
football playoffs?

BRIEF ANSWER
We conclude that the term "used exclusively" refers to uses where the school or schools have
sole possession, control, or use of an area of a facility. It is not limited by the duration of the use.

ANALYSIS
Before the 1993 legislative session, RCW 9.41.280(1) prohibited an "elementary or
secondary school student under the age of twenty-one knowingly to carry onto public or private
elementary or secondary school premises" a firearm, among other weapons. ESSB 5307 broadened
both the class of persons subject to the prohibition and the areas to which the prohibition applied.
The amendatory language reads:
(1) It is unlawful for ((an elementary or secondary school student under the
age of twenty-one knowingly)) a person to carry onto public or private elementary or
secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities
while being used exclusively by public or private schools:
(a) Any firearm[.]
Laws of 1993, ch. 347, § 1, p. 1388.
In interpreting a statute, the court's primary objective is to ascertain and carry out the intent
of the Legislature. Rozner v. Bellevue, 116 Wn.2d 342, 804 P.2d 24 (1991); Cherry v. Municipality
of Metropolitan Seattle, 116 Wn.2d 794, 808 P.2d 746 (1991). This objective governs the
interpretation of penal, as well as civil, statutes. See, e.g., State v. Johnson, 119 Wn.2d 167, 172,
829 P.2d 1082 (1992); State v. Clark, 96 Wn.2d 686, 638 P.2d 572 (1982). Penal statutes, however,
are construed more strictly according to the plain meaning of their words to ensure that citizens have
adequate notice of the proscribed conduct. Johnson, supra; State v. Shipp, 93 Wn.2d 510, 610 P.2d
1322 (1980).
In particular, when statutory language is ambiguous, the "rule of lenity" generally requires
the ambiguity be resolved in favor of the defendant. State v. Martin, 102 Wn.2d 300, 684 P.2d 1290
(1984). The rule of lenity is not absolute. It "does not require a forced, narrow, or overstrict
construction which defeats the intent of the legislature." State v. Johnson, supra, 119 Wn.2d at 172;
quoting State v. Cann, 92 Wn.2d 193, 197-98, 595 P.2d 912 (1979).
In our opinion, the plain meaning of RCW 9.41.280 makes it unlawful to carry a firearm
onto areas of facilities where schools have sole possession, control, or use, regardless of the
temporal duration of the use. To derive a durational limitation from "used exclusively" would be a
forced construction that is contrary to the plain meaning of the language, and contrary to the
legislative intent, of ESSB 5307.
Again, ESSB 5307 prohibits persons from possessing weapons in "areas of facilities while
being used exclusively by public or private schools". "Exclusively" modifies the word "used".
Thus, ESSB 5307 did not prohibit weapon possession in every facility used by a school, but only in
those used "exclusively" by the school. In construing a word that is not otherwise defined in the
statute, it is appropriate to resort to a dictionary definition. American Legion Post No. 32 v. Walla
Walla, 116 Wn.2d 1, 802 P.2d 784 (1991). "Exclusive" is defined as "excluding or having power to
exclude" and "limiting or limited to possession, control, or use (as by a single individual or
organization or by a special group or class)". Webster's Third New International Dictionary 793
(1981). Thus, if the school can exclude other potential users of a facility, the school has "exclusive
use" of the facility. The definition, of itself, implies no limit on the duration of the exclusive use.
The context of words in a statute also may help in interpreting the words. State v. Stockton,
97 Wn.2d 528, 647 P.2d 21 (1982). The context of "used exclusively" indicates that the term has no
durational meaning. The weapon prohibition applies to facilities "while being used exclusively" by
schools. "While", of course, does refer to duration. It means "during the time that". Webster's
Third New International Dictionary 2604 (1981). Read in context, "while being used exclusively"
indicates that the weapons prohibition applies during the time that the school (or schools) has sole
possession, control, or use of a facility. The statutory prohibition thus extends to all exclusive uses,
whether the use is prolonged or sporadic. Because "while" supplies the durational limits on the
weapons prohibition, it may be assumed that the Legislature did not intend for "used exclusively" to
impose an additional durational limitation.
The legislative history of ESSB 5307 also suggests the Legislature was concerned about
safeguarding facilities where school activities would be held, regardless of whether the use was
"prolonged". The relevant parts of section 1 of ESSB 5307, as it passed the Senate in March 1993,
stated:
It is unlawful for ((an elementary or secondary school student under the age
of twenty one knowingly)) a person to carry onto public or private elementary or
secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or athletic facilities
leased by public or private schools:
(a) Any firearm[.]
ESSB 5307 was amended in the House to incorporate the current language, and the Senate
concurred in the House's amendment. The language of the House amendment was apparently
intended to encompass the lease of athletic facilities included in the Senate version (which by their
nature might be used only on a "sporadic" basis) and to broaden the provision to also include other
facilities used exclusively by schools. The amendatory language expanded the prohibition to all
facilities, and areas of facilities, regardless of the nature of the schools' use or the means by which
the possession of the facilities is obtained.

For these reasons, we believe the term "used exclusively" in RCW 9.41.280 refers to sole
use, possession, or control of a facility, regardless of the duration of the use.

Yours very truly,
THORNTON WILSON
Assistant Attorney General
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
(6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

There is more applicable sections, you need to read the entirety of the RCW, my quote was not ALL the applicable portions, our RCW are short compared to most other states, but they do tend to run on.

You are correct I responded from memory and should have reviewed the RCW before I commented. I will revise my statement to say;

I absolutely think you could lawfully walk your kid OC or CC to the front door of his school per RCW 9.41.280 because of (e), (e) stands alone as an exception and does not depend on any of the other exceptions IMHO. However I would not want to be the test case.

The bigger problem if you were OC but not CC would be RCW 9.41.270 in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons. I think OC would easily meet the warrants alarm for the safety of other persons in just about every case one would lose that in court.

Do not try this at home or at a school.
 

Bill Starks

State Researcher
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
4,304
Location
Nortonville, KY, USA
I OC'd at Mt Tahoma High School (Tacoma) when I dropped off and picked up my daughter. I would walk her to the door and when I picked her up I did it at the door as well. I always arrived early (for pickup), waited till I heard the bell ring and at that time would walk to the door.

I got to know security and various school staff & other parents quite well.
 

Vitaeus

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
596
Location
Bremerton, Washington
a holstered firearm does not meet the .270 definitions, but I don't have the case(s) immediately to hand. One is not published and I never seem to be able to remember the other one. I decided to leave mine in the car, since if no one ever saw it, it was safer there than if folks knew I usually had it holstered on my hip. The pickup location was also inside the school gymnasium.
 

OlGutshotWilly

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
443
Location
Snohomish, WA, ,
So, I have a couple of questions actually. If I drop my kid off at school, I can OC or I have to CC? I understand I can't go inside buildings, what about covered areas? What is the amount of time I can linger after I drop off my kid? And how early before they get out of school can I be there? How about soccer games? Friday night football games? What if I'm picking my kid up after a sports game or an assembly or concert? Two of my kids are in rec league soccer and have soccer practice a our school districts satellite soccer fields. What's the law say about all this? I'm licensed for conceal, but prefer OC, do I have to pay a lawyer to find out the legality of all of this!? Help please

Cheers!

OCinBlaine

P.S. I know grammar and punctuation are not a skill I do well.

As has been discussed, "(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;"

This certainly allows you to drop off and pick up your students from school, and possibly from games, concerts etc. as well, as the law does not specify "school building". Nowhere in the law does it specifically prohibit OC, and since you have your permit you have had a background check and are deemed safe to carry a weapon onto school grounds.

I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Hayes about walking your students into the classroom based on "(6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building".

I have been dropping off and picking up my son from school for 6 years now. However, I don't go in the school armed. I think that part of the law is crock of fertilizer from a 4 legged furry beast that is near extinct, but so far I adhere to it, following (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

Now, in regards to OC'ing, even though anything not expressly prohibited by law would therefore be allowed, I personally choose not to be a test case for OC'ing on or in my sons school, or activities. But, I am not going to tell you to follow my example. You can read the law, and choose to OC and I won't criticize you. You may well have the time and resources to test that, and I respect your philosophy that OC needs to be normalized.

I do think the extended time "dropping off or picking up" may be a problem, unless you CC. The way I read the law, is that you need to be actively picking up or dropping off. However, I hang out all the time chatting with parents outside waiting for our kids. But, I am concealed, and definitely engaged in dropping off, or picking up my student.
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
As has been discussed, "(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;"

This certainly allows you to drop off and pick up your students from school, and possibly from games, concerts etc. as well, as the law does not specify "school building". Nowhere in the law does it specifically prohibit OC, and since you have your permit you have had a background check and are deemed safe to carry a weapon onto school grounds.

I have to respectfully disagree with Mr. Hayes about walking your students into the classroom based on "(6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building".

I have been dropping off and picking up my son from school for 6 years now. However, I don't go in the school armed. I think that part of the law is crock of fertilizer from a 4 legged furry beast that is near extinct, but so far I adhere to it, following (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

Now, in regards to OC'ing, even though anything not expressly prohibited by law would therefore be allowed, I personally choose not to be a test case for OC'ing on or in my sons school, or activities. But, I am not going to tell you to follow my example. You can read the law, and choose to OC and I won't criticize you. You may well have the time and resources to test that, and I respect your philosophy that OC needs to be normalized.

I do think the extended time "dropping off or picking up" may be a problem, unless you CC. The way I read the law, is that you need to be actively picking up or dropping off. However, I hang out all the time chatting with parents outside waiting for our kids. But, I am concealed, and definitely engaged in dropping off, or picking up my student.

Gut Shot even I now I disagree with Mr. Hayes after Vitaeus pointed out (6), you can not carry into a school building. That is what I get for depending on my memory and not taking a quick look at the RCW before opening my mouth.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
I OC'd at Mt Tahoma High School (Tacoma) when I dropped off and picked up my daughter. I would walk her to the door and when I picked her up I did it at the door as well. I always arrived early (for pickup), waited till I heard the bell ring and at that time would walk to the door.

I got to know security and various school staff & other parents quite well.

+1

I OC'd picking my kid up at middle school on my motorcycle, one time the principal told him I'd be arrested if I did that so I did it the very next day, everyone knew it was going to happen and the kids cheered, no cops showed up and I was wrong.....the kids got a good lesson in not believing everything or having to follow the advice of their "authorities".
 

Obi Wan

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
35
Location
Washington, Spokane
a holstered firearm does not meet the .270 definitions, but I don't have the case(s) immediately to hand. One is not published and I never seem to be able to remember the other one.

State v Cassad,
“The statute does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere carrying of a firearm in public.”

Obi Wan
 

jhfc

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Messages
158
Location
Vancouver, WA
State v Cassad,
“The statute does not and, under the Constitution, cannot prohibit the mere carrying of a firearm in public.”

Obi Wan

And yet, in the Kirby case, that seems to be exactly what he was doing. Unless it was the allegations of putting his hand on the gun and dressing in black that sunk his case.
 

arentol

New member
Joined
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Messages
383
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
Well, that's not going to happen, but your defeatous opinion has been noted. I will for sure not just claim ignorance and go to my sons soccer game all OC in everyone's face, how ever, I will be getting clarification from people who matter, and who care.

Cheers!

But you are more then welcome to just play games on forums and give up with out even trying.

We need to normalize our community.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

I am being a realist, not a defeatist. Just because gun free school zone laws are useless and stupid doesn't make them less laws for which you can and likely will be convicted.

My point was to make sure that you didn't go and do something stupid that would get you imprisoned when you have children to take care of. That was the reason I put it as strongly as I did. Not because I wouldn't love to see this law taken down our at least clarified by a test case, but because you seemed to be seriously considering a course of action that would almost definitely fark your life up beyond all recognition.

As for the mental exercise part.... Until you really do it that is indeed all this is, and I bet you won't ever do it so that is what it will remain.

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