Handgun private sale

solus said:

1. see above.

2. § 14-402. Sale of certain weapons without permit forbidden.
(a) It is unlawful for any person, firm, or corporation in this State to sell, give away, or transfer, or to purchase or receive, at any place within this State from any other place within or without the State any pistol unless: 1. abbreviated: '...by the purchaser or receiver ~ PPP...'; 2. abbreviated:'...CHP...by the purchaser or receiver....'

this statute applied to both private sales as well to those FFLs doing trade in the state of NC.

backhanded insults are a way of life with some.

ipse

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I got 14-402. I even posted part of it myself. What I desired of you was a cite for your statement that I required a NC DL as proof of residency. You failed, because I did not say that.

If you can, go back through all posts I've ever made. You'll find the only one that fits this is my response to yours; that's less than a "way of life". I don't have the vocabulary you use, but I am not going to step aside from someone making it personal.

every thing is fine go ahead and buy the gun.

can we not bring action against the Forsyth county sheriff?

carolina guy said:

+1

I have never heard of any requirements for a private seller to get any extra information other than VIEWING the PPP (for a pistol purchase).

The seller likely *SHOULD* (IMO) get some information (a photocopy of the PPP and/or NCDL would be good) should the buyer (or subsequent buyers) do something illegal with the firearm, just a CYA kinda thing.

Click to expand...

What would you be charged with if a buyer did something illegal with a gun (or vehicle) you once owned?

How would paperwork not required by law prevent you from being charged with said crime?

Leader said:

What would you be charged with if a buyer did something illegal with a gun (or vehicle) you once owned?

How would bypaperwork not required by law prevent you from being charged with said crime?

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Reasonable doubt.

solus said:

btw...there is no mandate prohibiting private sales from or to out of state individuals. for example, if an individual has a valid PPP from 2 years ago while they maintained residence in NC and in the interim moved out of state to SC, the former NC can return to NC and purchase from a private NC seller and only is required to provide their still valid PPP IAW 14.402.

food for thought!!



ipse

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...if an individual did this, he would be breaking Federal law, as would the seller...an individual sale is only legal when both parties are currently legal residents of the same state...if not, they must transfer through an FFL...

ATF 5300.4 of Sep 2005 p177 B. UNLICENSED PERSONS (B1) and (B2)

...the state PPP was issued on a set of facts that have changed since it was granted...the issuing authority would tell you that it's no longer valid, since you are no longer a resident of NC...if the buyer's residence is now SC, the NC-issued PPP is not valid...

WalkingWolf said:

Unless I have missed it, there are no requirements for the seller of a firearm spelled out, only what it is illegal for a buyer to do. Which means the seller does not have to do anything, as long as the buyer has no information that buyer has disabilities. If I have missed the statute where a seller must obtain information from the buyer hopefully somebody will step up and cite it.

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...ATF 5300.4 of Sep 2005 Pg 177 B.UNLICENSED PERSONS (B1)

...seller must be sure buyer is from the same state or he is breaking the law.

sheepdog said:

...ATF 5300.4 of Sep 2005 Pg 177 B.UNLICENSED PERSONS (B1)

...seller must be sure buyer is from the same state or he is breaking the law.

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Does it spell out HOW?

Example Seller "What state do you reside in?" Buyer "North Carolina"

Seller "Are you restricted from buying a firearm?" Buyer "No"

Seller "Do you have a CHP or PPP?" Buyer "Yes"

There are no ground rules for how, or that a seller must see documents. If there are please help us by citing them so we know in the future.

...not where I quoted, it doesn't...it just says "...to an unlicensed resident of his State..." which puts the onus on me to be able to prove that I didn't sell to, for example, an Okie...I'll research the quoted statutes where I quoted and see if the 18USC922(a)(3)and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30 give any more details...the 5300.4 is what I have at hand...and it DOESN'T give us an accepted level of due diligence...

IOW you got nuthin...

ok, here ya go, not reading the text within the post(s) and then spreading your mis-information hither and yon...poorly i might add!

cranky, condescending voice on

1. in another NC thread you unequivocally stated the 5300.4 was outdated, now you misuse it for your own purposes on this thread ~ give us a break will ya?

2. ATF's regulatory guidance concerns RETAIL purchase of firearms from FFLs ~ PERIOD!

3. what part of the word 'PRIVATE SALE' did you miss in my post(s)?

4. where is your cite that you are planning to quote from the misused and outdated 5300.4 or NC statute to respond to WW's query? (forum policy btw)

as stated earlier, a NC citizen must have a PPP/CHP, from their local sheriff to purchase a firearm from either a FFL or private citizen. the FFL is mandated to capture the information from the PPP or CHP for the 4473 RECORD, which proves their residence iaw current regulatory guidelines, now where does it state the citizen must show a drivers license etc?

in the private sale, the private citizen seller only needs to see the buyer's PPP/CHP.

and one further piece of information this isn't in the AG's brochure either!!

fyi, all cites provided earlier in the thread.

cranky, condescending voice off

sidebar, darn this sure sounds familiar to previous irritating conversations w/someone else who clerked for an FFL in ohio and is now banned from the forum...just saying.

ipse

WalkingWolf said:

IOW you got nuthin...

Click to expand...

...nothin' if you want to ignore the ATF 5300.4, and the quoted source laws...

...if you'll re-read, I didn't ever post any way that the seller is to verify that the buyer's a resident of the same state...just that the law requires that he is...

sheepdog said:

...ATF 5300.4 of Sep 2005 Pg 177 B.UNLICENSED PERSONS (B1)

...seller must be sure buyer is from the same state or he is breaking the law..

Click to expand...

quote sheepdog.....if you'll re-read, I didn't ever post any way that the seller is to verify that the buyer's a resident of the same state. .just that the law requires that he is. unquote

really, your slight of hand is getting sleazy especially since you might have left out the quotation marks indicating this is what the 5300 was stating..


ipse

solus said:

quote sheepdog.....if you'll re-read, I didn't ever post any way that the seller is to verify that the buyer's a resident of the same state. .just that the law requires that he is. unquote

really, your slight of hand is getting sleazy especially since you might have left out the quotation marks indicating this is what the 5300 was stating..


ipse

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"I didn't ever post any WAY tht the seller is to verify that the buyer's a resident of the same state...just that the law requires that he is"

(capitalization added on the word WAY to help you understand what the sentence means...

solus said:

ok, here ya go, not reading the text within the post(s) and then spreading your mis-information hither and yon...poorly i might add!

cranky, condescending voice on

1. in another NC thread you unequivocally stated the 5300.4 was outdated, now you misuse it for your own purposes on this thread ~ give us a break will ya?

2. ATF's regulatory guidance concerns RETAIL purchase of firearms from FFLs ~ PERIOD!

3. what part of the word 'PRIVATE SALE' did you miss in my post(s)?

4. where is your cite that you are planning to quote from the misused and outdated 5300.4 or NC statute to respond to WW's query? (forum policy btw)

as stated earlier, a NC citizen must have a PPP/CHP, from their local sheriff to purchase a firearm from either a FFL or private citizen. the FFL is mandated to capture the information from the PPP or CHP for the 4473 RECORD, which proves their residence iaw current regulatory guidelines, now where does it state the citizen must show a drivers license etc?

in the private sale, the private citizen seller only needs to see the buyer's PPP/CHP.

and one further piece of information this isn't in the AG's brochure either!!

fyi, all cites provided earlier in the thread.

cranky, condescending voice off

sidebar, darn this sure sounds familiar to previous irritating conversations w/someone else who clerked for an FFL in ohio and is now banned from the forum...just saying.

ipse

Click to expand...

Need to nitpick a little bit...

as stated earlier, a NC citizen must have a PPP/CHP, from their local sheriff to purchase a firearm from either a FFL or private citizen. the FFL is mandated to capture the information from the PPP or CHP for the 4473 RECORD, which proves their residence iaw current regulatory guidelines, now where does it state the citizen must show a drivers license etc?

in the private sale, the private citizen seller only needs to see the buyer's PPP/CHP.

Click to expand...

They only need a PPP or CHP if they are purchasing a "modern" pistol.

carolina guy said:

Need to nitpick a little bit...

They only need a PPP or CHP if they are purchasing a "modern" pistol.

Click to expand...

sorry, CG you are correct but didn't wish to muddy the waters further for sheepwhatever who is off on a tangent.

ipse

solus said:

ok, here ya go, not reading the text within the post(s) and then spreading your mis-information hither and yon...poorly i might add!

cranky, condescending voice on

1. in another NC thread you unequivocally stated the 5300.4 was outdated, now you misuse it for your own purposes on this thread ~ give us a break will ya?

2. ATF's regulatory guidance concerns RETAIL purchase of firearms from FFLs ~ PERIOD!

3. what part of the word 'PRIVATE SALE' did you miss in my post(s)?

4. where is your cite that you are planning to quote from the misused and outdated 5300.4 or NC statute to respond to WW's query? (forum policy btw)

as stated earlier, a NC citizen must have a PPP/CHP, from their local sheriff to purchase a firearm from either a FFL or private citizen. the FFL is mandated to capture the information from the PPP or CHP for the 4473 RECORD, which proves their residence iaw current regulatory guidelines, now where does it state the citizen must show a drivers license etc?

in the private sale, the private citizen seller only needs to see the buyer's PPP/CHP.

and one further piece of information this isn't in the AG's brochure either!!

fyi, all cites provided earlier in the thread.

cranky, condescending voice off

sidebar, darn this sure sounds familiar to previous irritating conversations w/someone else who clerked for an FFL in ohio and is now banned from the forum...just saying.

ipse

Click to expand...

...to state this: " ATF's regulatory guidance concerns RETAIL purchase of firearms from FFLs ~ PERIOD!" just proves to anyone familiar with the guide (5300.4) or has read it through that you aren't and haven't...it covers MUCH more than retailers...
...it even covers PRIVATE sales...if you read it...



...and before posting this: "in the private sale, the private citizen seller only needs to see the buyer's PPP/CHP.

and one further piece of information this isn't in the AG's brochure either"


...you might have actually READ the AG's guide...it's on page 5...


...once again, you're more interested in your agenda than in providing useful information...


...as to this: 4. where is your cite that you are planning to quote from the misused and outdated 5300.4 or NC statute to respond to WW's query? (forum policy btw)

...I guess I didn't quote enough laws in post 28 to satisfy your understanding of this "forum policy"...glad you're not a moderator...

sheepdog said:

...not where I quoted, it doesn't...it just says "...to an unlicensed resident of his State..." which puts the onus on me to be able to prove that I didn't sell to, for example, an Okie...I'll research the quoted statutes where I quoted and see if the 18USC922(a)(3)and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30 give any more details...the 5300.4 is what I have at hand...and it DOESN'T give us an accepted level of due diligence...

Click to expand...

waiting with bated breath for your quoted statutes regarding a private sale between NC citizens within the Tarheel state.

ipse

still on the trite the AG's brochure is Gospel aren't you...sigh...

btw, 5300.4 is not an out of context summary of federal firearm codes but rather puts multiple layers of code in one easily referenced place instead of the FFL manhandling multiple tomes of CFRs.

additionally, you will find, unless the specific CFR has been changed, the text is word for word from applicable CFR as shown in the 5300.4 reference guide. so you would not have to research the other CFRs for a cite but only to validate the CFR hasn't changed. for example 922 unlawful acts, in its entirety, mentioned in the paragraph on 179 under b13 question about private transactions is actually located on page 7 of the 5300.4.

this out of your system yet?

btw, what have you contributed to this and the other thread except mis-information?

ipse.

...the 5300.4 ISN'T word for word as I showed when I cited the USC on the 4473 11.b question...it is often a paraphrase...often doesn't carry every detail found in the actual supporting law...

...you won't deal with the fact that you don't know everything you're posting...as past statements have proven...you don't know what's covered in the material...there's no sense in discussing what you haven't read...

...your fallback posture isn't to prove in fact what you assert...it's to attack me and cast slurs...that doesn't change the FACTS...nor help anyone reading to get the information...

...anyone willing to do some work and read what's posted and the sources given can see what's there...anyone who won't...well...

...slur away...doesn't diminish the value of the post or the sources, be they guides or the actual codes...if you're out for the law...you'll find it...if you just want to argue...not with me...

sheepdog said:

...the 5300.4 ISN'T word for word as I showed when I cited the USC on the 4473 11.b question...it is often a paraphrase...often doesn't carry every detail found in the actual supporting law...

...you won't deal with the fact that you don't know everything you're posting...as past statements have proven...you don't know what's covered in the material...there's no sense in discussing what you haven't read...

...your fallback posture isn't to prove in fact what you assert...it's to attack me and cast slurs...that doesn't change the FACTS...nor help anyone reading to get the information...

...anyone willing to do some work and read what's posted and the sources given can see what's there...anyone who won't...well...

...slur away...doesn't diminish the value of the post or the sources, be they guides or the actual codes...if you're out for the law...you'll find it...if you just want to argue...not with me...

Click to expand...

roflmao...shame you won't respond with a direct answer...got to love it...

i believe you will notice my posts, w/cites & normally with links, are there for the membership to validate themselves the information presented and provide dialogue to further our understanding of the subject. my contention is and has been you have failed to provide anything but information coupled with nothing but half arsed cites, as you have in your other postings. yet insist to challenge everyone by stating 'you have not read, etc.,' 'your cite doesn't count' w/o elaboration does not bode well for furthering dialogue does it?

and yes, it does diminish the value of the post when they are not valid or value added plus coupled with your continual failure to recognize the difference between regulatory compliance and a 'record' or your challenging a guide's completeness while not recognizing the document is not even regulatory in nature is a disservice to the forum membership.

in both NC threads, your seat of the pants advice, is horse manure...in this one, out of the blue you flatly state: quote "...he would be breaking Federal law, as would the seller." unquote. without a a viable citation from 922. to cite from the question and answer portion is not viable sorry! You did the same in the other NC thread giving pronouncements w/o cites except off the 4473. nowhere did you check the NC laws!

but wait you lead us to believe by inferred comments you are a FFL with numerous years experience, trust me i find that truly difficult to believe based on your postings and attitude on the subject. especially since, everyone knows the 'question' response portion of 5300.4 is not word for word but the cite at the bottom of the response tells someone where to find the direct reference to the affected CFR.

yet you have the audacity to challenge the veracity of my posts, i sure just cuz you believe you can, without any type of viable argument other that to get hurt when you yourself are challenged for the mis-information you are slinging...

provide specifics, cite right, provide appropriate guidance, and perhaps, just perhaps, you can actively participate in the dialogue otherwise your going to be shamed numerous times for the crap you are slinging.

enjoy,

ipse