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I am confused by BATFE federal law

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t33j

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Here are a couple of BATFE numbers you can call if you would like to hear it from the source.

My phone call to the ATF a while back resulted in them telling me I could not possess a handgun under 21 in Virginia... big help that was, and very wrong. Luckily I already knew it was legal... Normally I'd say don't ask police for legal advice but the ATF should know better.
 
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SouthernBoy

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My phone call to the ATF a while back resulted in them telling me I could not possess a handgun under 21 in Virginia... big help that was, and very wrong. Luckily I already knew it was legal... Normally I'd say don't ask police for legal advice but the ATF should know better.

I have generally tried to avoid this conversation for obvious reasons (I wish to maintain my sanity, maybe???). However, your post here begs a question from me if you don't mind.

Let's suppose Sheila Wanna-be-hero-ATF-agent, the person who answered your question, happens to encounter a youngster in our fair state openly carrying a firearm and said young person is quite obviously under 21. With her misguided knowledge, do you think she might try to do something and does she even have the authority to do it here in Virginia?

Honest question... really.
 

nova

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"Youth Handgun Safety Act"

Minimum age to possess handguns and handgun ammunition is 18.


The ONLY thing with handguns that federal law requires you to be 21, is actually purchasing one from an FFL, or purchasing handgun ammunition from an FFL.


Disregard what BATF says, or anyone else, other than an actual attorney who are the only people who can provide legal advice. Read the law yourself, it doesn't lie, or mislead.
 

user

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First, a response to the basic question: The United States has the authority to regulate interstate commerce. So anything having to do with the transfer of possession or title to a firearm is fair game for them. But issues of simple possession, use, and transportation within one state by a resident of that state is a matter of state law. And, in Virginia you have to be eighteen to be in unsupervised possession of a handgun. Keep in mind that Maryland is a foreign state with an entirely different legal system, and when you cross borders, the rules change.

Colt1911, ...I would not even accept the word of a BATFE agent who showed me his badge and credentials. He is not the correct source of the law. The correct source of the law is the statute or ordinance itself, the text of the regulation, or a court opinion. Please memorize and apply that.
...
We are not your personal research assistants nor your secretaries. The problem is not that you have questions. The problem is that you are not taking responsibility to find your own answers before wanting us to do your research for you.

So,

1) Don't ask anybody--cops, BATFE, park rangers--what the law is. The only person it is relatively safe to ask is your lawyer.

2) Read the law for yourself. You are the one going to jail if someone else tells it to you sideways. If you need help finding the law, feel free to ask where to look, meaning if you have already looked for it yourself and can't find it, then ask for an internet resource where you can read the law for yourself. If, after reading the law, you are not sure you understand, or want to check your understanding, then feel free to ask us.

1. I'd say (and this applies to "law enforcement officers" generally) especially not to rely on what they tell you the law is. Unless they're attorneys licensed in the state in which you're talking to them, it's illegal for them to give you legal advice, anyway ( a class one misdemeanor); and if they tell you wrong, you could sue them civilly for legal malpractice (you don't have to be a lawyer to give bad legal advice). Nevertheless, they often do make pronouncements about what the law is, but this is usually hokum for which the technical legal term is, "dust in the eyes." They will tell you what they want you to believe the law is, hoping that you'll act on it. It's hogwash or often outright lies.

2. I do function as a "research assistant", and will be happy to research any legal issue you like and write a formal memorandum of law on the subject. But that's work and I do charge for it, though at about half what I charge to appear in court. (Keep in mind that I'm only licensed in Virginia. I can and do research the laws of other states, but cannot give legal advice regarding foreign laws.) Oh, and by the way, I talk off the top of my head on web forums, and I don't supply cites to authority unless I happen to remember them. If someone wants to hire me to look 'em up, I'll be happy to do so. And, in such an event, I'll also tell you if I was wrong when I was spouting off to begin with.

3. It is a good idea to read the law for yourself; but there's a reason that it takes three to five years of law school to learn how to do that. Although the law is supposed to be interpreted according to the "plain meaning rule", it is not. And in Virginia, you have to be familiar with the common law of England as it was in 1607 to understand the context within which the code of Virginia and judicial opinions are taking place. It's all a vast, interlocking web of complexities and technical language. Here's a couple of examples. (a) What's the basic law of the use of a highway, commonly called, "right of way"? Answer: first come, first served. Where is that in the Code? BZZZT, thank you for playing! It ain't there! It's common law, going back to when the Romans first built roads in England almost two thousand years ago. Everything you read in the code (e.g., the person on the right has the right of way when two vehicles approach the intersection at about the same time) is an exception to the basic rule. And, (b) What's a "signature"? Most folks think "signature" and "autograph" are pretty much the same thing. Error! A signature does not have to be handwritten, nor a name. A signature is "any sign or symbol used or adopted with the present intention to authenticate a writing." More common law, though it has been codified in the Uniform Commercial Code. An "autograph", on the other hand, has no authentication significance, but must be one's own name in one's own handwriting. So, in the Nineteenth Century, a guy in N.C. agreed to buy land in N.Y. and sent the owner a telegram, the court found that his act of causing his name to be transmitted in Morse code for subsequent printing constituted a "signature". (First instance I could find of an "electronic signature" when I was researching that stuff for the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, back in the early '80's.)

Point is, when you're reading a statute or a court opinion that uses the word, "signature", you have to be able to recognize that this is not an English word of common parlance, but a technical term in "legalese" having a special meaning in law. Consider the word, "gun", and how that's different from, "firearm"...
 
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t33j

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King George, VA
Let's suppose Sheila Wanna-be-hero-ATF-agent, the person who answered your question, happens to encounter a youngster in our fair state openly carrying a firearm and said young person is quite obviously under 21. With her misguided knowledge, do you think she might try to do something and does she even have the authority to do it here in Virginia?

Honest question... really.

The lady who answered my call couldn’t “answer” my question herself. She had to ask her manager/supervisor to give me her answer.
We know some regular cops (try to) do things they don't have authority to do. Do we know anything that would indicate that federal agents are different? (cough TSA)

I don’t have a straightforward answer to your question. My guess would be that because the ATF deals with federal regs, they should only be concerned with underage purchase (not possession). There is more than one way someone under 21 could obtain a handgun legally so they’d have quite a time establishing that it was obtained illegally by observing someone under 21 simply possessing one.


...Well thanks User
 
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peter nap

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I'm going to take this slightly OT since user responded.

1911, I said in another of your threads, read the posters and you'll see the ones that can be relied on for good information. I specifically said I was NOT one.

I also named User as one that could be used as reference. While some of his comments puzzle me, they are always right. I don't bother to double check what he says anymore. I just accept it.

Here's where I go OT.
User is a practicing attorney and a good one. Considering the amount of time he spends here, I think he is one of the few lawyers that really believes in his role as council...as opposed to a few lawyers we have here, that are only drumming up business.

His contact information is in his profile and I'd urge anyone that may need a lawyer in the future (That includes most of us) to copy his information and keep it.

It's always good to have a lawyer handy if you need it.
It's great to have a very competent lawyer and there are tons of incompetent ones.
It's close to Divine to have a friendly, competent, lawyer.

While this may seem like a shameless plug and I suppose it is in a way, User had no idea I am writing this.
To me, suggesting having a good lawyer at hand is no different than recommending you carry a spare magazine.

Back on topic:uhoh:
 

nova

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Youth handgun prohibition act is more like it.

You know, I've seen numerous young people fire sidearms and I must admit that most of them were as good or better shots than I. :uhoh:

That's why I put it in quotes, like when I say "Gun Free School Zone Act"

:lol:

Sure has stopped criminals from shooting up K-12 schools, hasn't it? :(
 

simmonsjoe

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Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
I was told all handguns in VA were registered.

My phone call to the ATF a while back resulted in them telling me I could not possess a handgun under 21 in Virginia... big help that was, and very wrong. Luckily I already knew it was legal... Normally I'd say don't ask police for legal advice but the ATF should know better.
I had a handgun illegally confiscated out of my PA hotel room. The state police told me it was because it was unregistered. I called the ATF and reported my pistol as stolen. They called me back and said that it had been confiscated because I failed to register it.:shocker:

The next day I received a call and the story changed to, they confiscated it because the maid in the hotel room had found it while she was looking through my stuff, so it was insecure. I could come get it any time! So I went to pick it up, and that entitled them SHIPPING my pistol to an FFL dealer in VA, because I was a VA resident. I had to work in PA for another month without a means of self defense.

I tried to get the maid fired, filing a written complaint with the manager and his corporate office. The response he gave me is that she was searching underneath the clothes in my drawers to check for spills that needed cleaning!!!!

When I got my pistol back, I took it out and test fired it. It no longer fired more than 25% of rounds. All the primer strikes were extremely light, due to the striker being shortened:mad:

This was in PA and I'm a resident of VA.
This was before I knew about this board. I tried to find information on lawyers to sue but it happened a few years ago. I couldn't find any information and eventually just forgot about it.

I do occasionally think back and pray to God that officer's gun fails to fire when he really needs it.
 
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nova

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I had a handgun illegally confiscated out of my PA hotel room. The state police told me it was because it was unregistered. I called the ATF and reported my pistol as stolen. They called me back and said that it had been confiscated because I failed to register it.:shocker:

The next day I received a call and the story changed to, they confiscated it because the maid in the hotel room had found it while she was looking through my stuff, so it was insecure. I could come get it any time! So I went to pick it up, and that entitled them SHIPPING my pistol to an FFL dealer in VA, because I was a VA resident. I had to work in PA for another month without a means of self defense.

I tried to get the maid fired, filing a written complaint with the manager and his corporate office. The response he gave me is that she was searching underneath the clothes in my drawers to check for spills that needed cleaning!!!!

When I got my pistol back, I took it out and test fired it. It no longer fired more than 25% of rounds. All the primer strikes were extremely light, due to the striker being shortened:mad:

This was in PA and I'm a resident of VA.
This was before I knew about this board. I tried to find information on lawyers to sue but it happened a few years ago. I couldn't find any information and eventually just forgot about it.

I do occasionally think back and pray to God that officer's gun fails to fire when he really needs it.

While PA won't admit it, PA State Police does in fact maintain a registry of handguns. This is why in PA, private sales of handguns outside of family members is illegal. That way they all have to go through an FFL who then sends your info to PSP.
 

pyite

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Does this dude ever come back to the threads he starts?

I am thinking that whatever age he claims to be it's not old enough for him to carry a gun. The mind must mature first or he could get himself in big trouble.
 

TFred

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While PA won't admit it, PA State Police does in fact maintain a registry of handguns. This is why in PA, private sales of handguns outside of family members is illegal. That way they all have to go through an FFL who then sends your info to PSP.
Here's a question I've had for a while... if there is no national (or in Virginia, state) registration of handguns, then why do you need to put the model and serial number on the background check form? If they are truly just determining whether you may or may not purchase the gun, then all you need is "Joe Smith wants to purchase one handgun today." Yes or no.

I think we're all being snookered about this claim of no registration.

TFred
 

wylde007

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I am thinking that whatever age he claims to be it's not old enough for him to carry a gun. The mind must mature first or he could get himself in big trouble.
A broadly held and, as yet, unrefuted assertion.
I think we're all being snookered about this claim of no registration.
You "think"?

Shall not be infringed. No authority was originally granted (nor necessary) to purchase, own, possess, carry or even discharge a firearm by a private citizen.

Generations of progressivism and liberal "interpretation" of the Constitution have assaulted us with act after act intended to disarm and/or pronate the citizenry of this country to the government, forcing us all to bow, without recourse, to their demands and mandates.
 

wrightme

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A broadly held and, as yet, unrefuted assertion.You "think"?

Shall not be infringed. No authority was originally granted (nor necessary) to purchase, own, possess, carry or even discharge a firearm by a private citizen.

Generations of progressivism and liberal "interpretation" of the Constitution have assaulted us with act after act intended to disarm and/or pronate the citizenry of this country to the government, forcing us all to bow, without recourse, to their demands and mandates.
And most of it based on a VERY loose interpretation and implementation of the Commerce Clause....
 

peter nap

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Here's a question I've had for a while... if there is no national (or in Virginia, state) registration of handguns, then why do you need to put the model and serial number on the background check form? If they are truly just determining whether you may or may not purchase the gun, then all you need is "Joe Smith wants to purchase one handgun today." Yes or no.

I think we're all being snookered about this claim of no registration.

TFred

That's true to a certain extent TFred.
It's common knowledge that the ATF can and does trace guns back yo at least the original purchaser.

That's one of the reasons I buy FTF only. Of course I miss all my guns that were lost in the Bermuda Triangle, I will buy FTF when I replace them. Being anti gun though, I may just buy a couple of cell phones and a whistle instead:shocker:
 

wylde007

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And most of it based on a VERY loose interpretation and implementation of the Commerce Clause...
A very onerous and deliberate MISinterpretation of said clause, my friend.

The commerce clause one of, if not THE most abused constructions of the Constitution. It has bankrupted and laid to waste many fortunes and good men, and made for an almost endless array of hoops that we must all jump through, private citizen or publicly-traded corporation, levying fines and extorting fees for products and services, merely because they want their "share" of our efforts to line their own pockets.
 

SouthernBoy

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I'm going to take this slightly OT since user responded.

1911, I said in another of your threads, read the posters and you'll see the ones that can be relied on for good information. I specifically said I was NOT one.

I also named User as one that could be used as reference. While some of his comments puzzle me, they are always right. I don't bother to double check what he says anymore. I just accept it.

Here's where I go OT.
User is a practicing attorney and a good one. Considering the amount of time he spends here, I think he is one of the few lawyers that really believes in his role as council...as opposed to a few lawyers we have here, that are only drumming up business.

His contact information is in his profile and I'd urge anyone that may need a lawyer in the future (That includes most of us) to copy his information and keep it.

It's always good to have a lawyer handy if you need it.
It's great to have a very competent lawyer and there are tons of incompetent ones.
It's close to Divine to have a friendly, competent, lawyer.

While this may seem like a shameless plug and I suppose it is in a way, User had no idea I am writing this.
To me, suggesting having a good lawyer at hand is no different than recommending you carry a spare magazine.

Back on topic:uhoh:

I have attended two of User's seminars on the use of deadly force and the carrying of firearms in Virginia and I highly recommend others to do the same. Arming oneself with knowledge is at least as important as arming oneself with the tools of the Second Amendment. I also count him as a friend and enjoy his company from time to time.
 
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