VCDL Campus Protest @ ODU, 11/1/11 @12:30 pm

See post #74 at http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?95751-VCDL-Operation-Campus-Safety/page3 for info on a ride from Richmond.

Phil may be setting up something for other carpools. Watch for a VA-ALERT on that.

stay safe.

Hit this poll on guns on campus

http://tinyurl.com/3ptjgjwThere is a poll question next to the article and gun owners are currently ahead. The question is tricky, but the pro-gun answer is "OPPOSE."

"Do you support or oppose policies to prohibit holders of concealed-weapon permits [PVC: should be concealed HANDGUN permits] from bringing firearms into campus buildings?"

http://tinyurl.com/3ptjgjw

Wish I could be there!
God speeed ladies and gents

Grapeshot said:

http://tinyurl.com/3ptjgjwThere is a poll question next to the article and gun owners are currently ahead. The question is tricky, but the pro-gun answer is "OPPOSE."

"Do you support or oppose policies to prohibit holders of concealed-weapon permits [PVC: should be concealed HANDGUN permits] from bringing firearms into campus buildings?"

http://tinyurl.com/3ptjgjw

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The pro-perks answer is OPPOSE.

The pro-freedom answer is not listed nor even considered in this context.

91% have voted "oppose" as I write this. Looks like the antis didn't RTFQ. Either that or this paper's readership is overwhelmingly pro-gun.

Felix said:

91% have voted "oppose" as I write this. Looks like the antis didn't RTFQ. Either that or this paper's readership is overwhelmingly pro-gun.

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Suspect that they didn't read and understand the information, but isn't the usual way for them?

wylde007 said:

The pro-perks answer is OPPOSE.

The pro-freedom answer is not listed nor even considered in this context.

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Ah, yes - the windmill approach to getting campus carry.

wylde007 said:

The pro-perks answer is OPPOSE.

The pro-freedom answer is not listed nor even considered in this context.

Click to expand...

Even with just a CHP approach, unless the CHP age is dropped to ensure eligibility by those age 18, a bill to allow for carry on campus for those who hold CHPs won't even help the vast majority of the enrolled students on campus. According to http://admissions.odu.edu/graduate.php?page=stats there are a total of about 24,000 students enrolled at ODU. About 18,500 are undergrad students and 84% of that number, about 16,000, are on campus (I take that to mean living on campus, but that could be those who aren't taking online courses). From my college experience, lower-classmen are the ones who live on campus so it's probably a fair estimate to say most of theose 16,000 undergrad students are under age 21 (not juniors or seniors).

Those underclassmen are often required to live on campus unless they are locals, so they would have no place to keep a gun for ready use even when they are done with classes at the end of the day. Those who live off-campus, typically upper classmen, would have the option to keep a gun at home or even with them briefly in the car while parked if they are willing to take their chances getting caught. The underclassmen who live on campus then are left to walk around campus (which is their home) defenseless.

If underclassmen are left unarmed, that would leave only upperclassmen and grad students and the small number of faculty or staff that could reasonably respond to an armed threat. Unfortunately the upperclassmen, grad students and vast majority of the faculty and staff won't be around in the classes that underclassmen take, which are the classes which have the most people.

I should note here that I do absolutely do agree with the concept of withholding donation funds until schools allow their students and staff to carry!

VCDL President said:

Ah, yes - the windmill approach to getting campus carry.

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I really don't follow.

Or... you don't.

jmelvin said:

Even with just a CHP approach, unless the CHP age is dropped to ensure eligibility by those age 18, a bill to allow for carry on campus for those who hold CHPs won't even help the vast majority of the enrolled students on campus.

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I have been screaming this exact thing for over a year now.

wylde007 said:

I really don't follow.

Or... you don't.I have been screaming this exact thing for over a year now.

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Yeah I know. I've thought the same thing. I'm close enough to college years that I recall what actually happens. A CHP process applicable only to the older students doesn't do jack for the people who are most likely spend their entire time on the campus and be exposed to the on-campus or near campus crime.

jmelvin said:

Yeah I know. I've thought the same thing. I'm close enough to college years that I recall what actually happens. A CHP process applicable only to the older students doesn't do jack for the people who are most likely spend their entire time on the campus and be exposed to the on-campus or near campus crime.

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VCDL is coming at different angles on the issue. But the Board does not feel the the "No Guns? No Funds?" campaign would be successful if we go beyond permit holders. Our other approaches might fix that problem. Nothing is guaranteed, hence the multiple prong approach.

For those who like to sit back and pooh-pooh VCDL's efforts as being merely "P4P", by all means set up and coordinate your own rally to allow open carry for 18 and up at all the public universities and colleges. I hope you succeed! But in the meantime VCDL is taking the permit holder carry path with these protests. Better to have some able to defend themselves than none - something trumps nothing every time.

As I've said before, VCDL likes Constitutional Carry and will continue to push the issue, but we will NOT stop forward movement for CHP holders in the meantime.

And now I pause for the usual "P4P" crowd to jump in, guns 'a blazin'. ;-)

ODU in particular has very many students that they like to call "non-traditional". They are all 21+; many of them are military. I'd estimate about 1/5 of the makeup of my classes over the past year has been "non-traditional". I can't say that's the same for elsewhere.

wylde007 said:

The pro-perks answer is OPPOSE.

The pro-freedom answer is not listed nor even considered in this context.

Click to expand...

+1. The "CORRECT" answer is not there.

VCDL President said:

VCDL is coming at different angles on the issue. But the Board does not feel the the "No Guns? No Funds?" campaign would be successful if we go beyond permit holders. Our other approaches might fix that problem. Nothing is guaranteed, hence the multiple prong approach.

For those who like to sit back and pooh-pooh VCDL's efforts as being merely "P4P", by all means set up and coordinate your own rally to allow open carry for 18 and up at all the public universities and colleges. I hope you succeed! But in the meantime VCDL is taking the permit holder carry path with these protests. Better to have some able to defend themselves than none - something trumps nothing every time.

As I've said before, VCDL likes Constitutional Carry and will continue to push the issue, but we will NOT stop forward movement for CHP holders in the meantime.

And now I pause for the usual "P4P" crowd to jump in, guns 'a blazin'. ;-)

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Since you quoted me you should probably take note that in my first post above I said I like the "No Guns No Funds" pitch. My only issue with the CHP only thing is it doesn't help most of the students, who aren't even eligible for permits.

Frankly you can only get people worked up a limited number of times to support major changes like this in the legislature. My opinion is the big lobby groups with the most numbers of members should go for the gold (OC and CC, like anywhere else in the state) from the start and if the GA isn't willing to go along immediately take what you can get and then keep the pressure up. This constant push from VCDL for those who don't like perks-for-permittees to take their time and energy elsewhere because they aren't wanted will only serve to splinter the effort. If the life of the student is really precious and worthy of defense why not work hard from the start to ensure that all of their lives can be protected? You can't force the GA's hand, but you can choose what message to push to them.

jmelvin said:

Since you quoted me you should probably take note that in my first post above I said I like the "No Guns No Funds" pitch. My only issue with the CHP only thing is it doesn't help most of the students, who aren't even eligible for permits.

Frankly you can only get people worked up a limited number of times to support major changes like this in the legislature. My opinion is the big lobby groups with the most numbers of members should go for the gold (OC and CC, like anywhere else in the state) from the start and if the GA isn't willing to go along immediately take what you can get and then keep the pressure up. This constant push from VCDL for those who don't like perks-for-permittees to take their time and energy elsewhere because they aren't wanted will only serve to splinter the effort. If the life of the student is really precious and worthy of defense why not work hard from the start to ensure that all of their lives can be protected? You can't force the GA's hand, but you can choose what message to push to them.

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We HAVE pushed for the "gold" several times: state-agency preemption. We will continue that fight and will win it at some point. In the meantime we continue the fight for CHP holders via the "No guns? No funds" protests.

We kept the pressure up on the restaurant ban repeal for over 10 years, so you can keep the issue going for a long time. Sometimes your only choice is a protracted battle - so be it.

VCDL President said:

Sometimes your only choice is a protracted battle - so be it.

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Siege warfare.

My favorite.

VCDL President said:

We HAVE pushed for the "gold" several times: state-agency preemption. We will continue that fight and will win it at some point. In the meantime we continue the fight for CHP holders via the "No guns? No funds" protests.

We kept the pressure up on the restaurant ban repeal for over 10 years, so you can keep the issue going for a long time. Sometimes your only choice is a protracted battle - so be it.

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Understood. I certainly wasn't saying it hadn't been done before.

The notable difference on the restaurant carry thing though was that anyone over age 18 could legally carry in places serving alcohol without a permit already. This was not something that was restricted to anyone other than those who cannot lawfully carry anyway. I'm certainly not suggesting pushing for concealed carry in restaurants and such was wrong, it was definitely the right thing to do. I am saying, however, that it was a completely different scenario that even I fought for even though I primarily carry openly.

wylde007 said:

Siege warfare.

My favorite.

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It may be slow, but it is a tried and true battle plan. I too like the full-frontal assault method but I will take a siege over nothing.

thebigsd said:

I too like the full-frontal assault method but I will take a siege over nothing.

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I prefer a flanking attack, you know, like Little Round Top was SUPPOSED to be.