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Disclosure And Disarmed

Beretta92FSLady

Beretta92FSLady

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*Sorry, not diclosure...disclosure*

I will not go into detail about the incident, other than saying that there was an assault perpetrated against me by an employee of a large food/clothing chain and I called the police.

My sidearm was never drawn, actually, even if I needed to draw, I would not have had time.

I told dispatch that I was armed. When the officers arrived, the officer immediately told me to put my hand on my head asked where the gun was and disarmed me. I demanded that the employee move away from me, and he refused...I was on the phone with 911 and told them I was armed and to tell him to move away from me...gave him the phone and they told him to move away from me.

What kinda worried me is that i think dispatch told him that I was armed and to move away from me. Then I was concerned about him making up some story about me "brandishing" or something.

From what I understand, in the class I took for the Utah permit, a person does not have to notify police ion the event of a stop of any sort. Does me telling dispatch that I am armed give them the go-ahead to disarm me? I was CC'ing

I received my sidearm back after the contact was finished and police reports were filed.

A couple of concerns:

-Officer took my handgun, I carry safety off, round chambered, and he was tilting my handgun up away from the ground and there were customers walking around. I told him as he was doing it, "the safety is off, the trigger is long but light, and it is loaded, please be careful."

-He handed me back my sidearm with the slide closed. I went to check if the gun was clear before I holstered it and he asked me, "what are you doing that for." He wanted me to just holster my sidearm without even checking, kinda, trust in his "good judgment" that the sidearm was cleared...I said, "to see whether there is a round chambered or not." I suppose he can hand it back however he likes, right, maybe I am just knit-picking.
 
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GenkiSudo

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Tough call.

I personally would have waited until the officer arrived to inform him/her that I was carrying. Announcing it in front of the other half of a civil problem is, IMO, begging for them to spout some BS about you pulling it on them. If there aren't other witnesses it just becomes a he said / she said and you run a chance of losing that battle.

There is no duty to inform but I like to be on the safe side. This fall I went with my uncle to get some of his personal items that his ex-wife had....I waited for the officer to arrive before I told him that I was armed.

Hope everything aside from that turned out well.
 
G

GenkiSudo

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Oh and not nit-picky. I don't care if Smith, Wesson, Benelli and Bernie Mac handed me back my weapon telling me it was clear, I'd still check it.
 
Beretta92FSLady

Beretta92FSLady

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I told the operator on the phone that I was armed, in a quiet way...the guy didn't know that I said it. But like I said, I think the dispatcher told him to move away from me because I am armed, I would think they wouldn't, but you never know. I do know that the officer definitely told the guy I was armed...after the officer sorted out the situation and heard both sides...the guy might be rethinking his interaction with people...since, you never know who might be armed.
 
S

swillden

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Beretta92FSLady said:
From what I understand, in the class I took for the Utah permit, a person does not have to notify police ion the event of a stop of any sort. Does me telling dispatch that I am armed give them the go-ahead to disarm me?
Click to expand...
Terry v. Ohio says that if the officer has reasonable suspicion that you may have been involved in a crime, and reasonable suspicion that you are armed and may pose a danger to him or others, he is legally justified in searching you and removing any weapons he finds for the duration of the encounter.

You didn't tell us the whole story, so I can't really speculate on whether or not he had reasonable suspicion of a crime, but as to the fact that you were armed, he had actual evidence -- your own words as relayed by the dispatcher -- and officers generally get a lot of leeway in deciding when someone might pose a danger to themselves or others.

So, I suspect that the seizure was perfectly valid under the law.
 
Beretta92FSLady

Beretta92FSLady

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swillden said:
So, I suspect that the seizure was perfectly valid under the law.
Click to expand...

I don't feel like him disarming me was unreasonable, because the situation involved an assault, at least the call was because of an assault against me.

Like I said, after it was all sorted out, he gave me back my gun. Monday is going to be a busy day. Apparently in Utah, if you are assaulted you have to file it or something like that...still confused about Utah laws.
 
P

Pistol Pete Utah

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Sandy, Utah, USA
So you were asulted? Should have been OCing, might not have happend! lol

You call the police, you never had to draw your gun, you were CCing, no one knew you had a gun why then tell the world you have one?
This is how that all could have gone down: You call dispatch, give them the information needed for them to get to you, then tell the guy I am not comfortable with you standing close to me, back up or tell dispatch I am going to leave, until the police show up, give them (dispatch) your location of where you will be waiting. The Cop comes, you give him a statement, he takes the other guys statement and everyone goes home safe. Man it is easy to play arm-chair quaterback.

Side Note: Cops are not range safety officers! lol

True story: My son's step-dad was with SLCPD for over 20 years, retires and moves to FL gets on the police force there but fails the firearms shooting qualification test, he and the family "fast and pray" that he passes the next test, and prayers are answered he passed the test. I hope he prays every time he picks up his firearm that he will never have to use it. He only shoot a gun when the department requires him to do so. He NEVER goes to the range on his own. My 16 year old shoots better them him.
 
Beretta92FSLady

Beretta92FSLady

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Pistol Pete Utah said:
You call the police, you never had to draw your gun, you were CCing, no one knew you had a gun why then tell the world you have one?
This is how that all could have gone down: You call dispatch, give them the information needed for them to get to you, then tell the guy I am not comfortable with you standing close to me, back up or tell dispatch I am going to leave, until the police show up, give them (dispatch) your location of where you will be waiting. The Cop comes, you give him a statement, he takes the other guys statement and everyone goes home safe. Man it is easy to play arm-chair quaterback.
Click to expand...

The problem is, the guy wouldn't move away from me or let me step away, he was in my face the whole time, even when I yelled at him to back away from me immediately. It wasn't as if i was going anywhere, I called the police...I wanted the guy to get away from me, he had just grabbed me and pushed me to the ground, I wasn't in the mood for anymore physical contact. I was CC'ing. I am not hanging on it though, the guy stepped away when dispatch told him to. It was just frustrating. I am going to go and file charges tomorrow, as I said. And look into getting this issue handled.

I told dispatch because I wanted them to get him away from me. I felt that him aggressively engaging me, even after he pushed me to the ground, was dangerous, because I was armed, well, and just because...I mean, he couldn't keep his hands to himself. I didn't want to declare it to him, then get threatening him with a handgun or some other stupid charge he thinks of accusing me of when the police show up. I wasn't sure what was going through his mind.

I am going to sort this crap out tomorrow. I was just curious about disclosure...I know what I was told at the class, but just wanted to make sure.

So, say the officer shows up, I didn't say anything about being armed...typically the first question out of their mouth is "do you have any weapons on you?" Legally, even when they ask, do you have to tell them that you are armed? I mean, if you tell them no, then you are lying. If you say nothing, you aren't lying, but your silence is implying that you likely are.
 
Tomas

Tomas

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University Place, Washington, USA
Once you get this sorted out I so want to hear the details...

Sounds like you took the steps you felt necessary for everyone's safety, and sounds also as thought the responding LEO took the correct steps in disarming you while he investigated.

As to his mishandling of your firearm, etc., it is about what I would expect: Most every LEO I have met is NOT a firearms person any more than a carpenter is a hammer person - to them it is just a tool, and they are not near as knowledgeable as they should be ON AVERAGE.

Good luck in sorting things out.
 
NewZealandAmerican

NewZealandAmerican

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Why?

Beretta92FSLady said:
*Sorry, not diclosure...disclosure*

I will not go into detail about the incident, other than saying that there was an assault perpetrated against me by an employee of a large food/clothing chain and I called the police.

My sidearm was never drawn, actually, even if I needed to draw, I would not have had time.

I told dispatch that I was armed. When the officers arrived, the officer immediately told me to put my hand on my head asked where the gun was and disarmed me. I demanded that the employee move away from me, and he refused...I was on the phone with 911 and told them I was armed and to tell him to move away from me...gave him the phone and they told him to move away from me.

What kinda worried me is that i think dispatch told him that I was armed and to move away from me. Then I was concerned about him making up some story about me "brandishing" or something.

From what I understand, in the class I took for the Utah permit, a person does not have to notify police ion the event of a stop of any sort. Does me telling dispatch that I am armed give them the go-ahead to disarm me? I was CC'ing

I received my sidearm back after the contact was finished and police reports were filed.

A couple of concerns:

-Officer took my handgun, I carry safety off, round chambered, and he was tilting my handgun up away from the ground and there were customers walking around. I told him as he was doing it, "the safety is off, the trigger is long but light, and it is loaded, please be careful."

-He handed me back my sidearm with the slide closed. I went to check if the gun was clear before I holstered it and he asked me, "what are you doing that for." He wanted me to just holster my sidearm without even checking, kinda, trust in his "good judgment" that the sidearm was cleared...I said, "to see whether there is a round chambered or not." I suppose he can hand it back however he likes, right, maybe I am just knit-picking.
Click to expand...

Why did this employee contend with you in the first place? If I were you and he grabbed or pushed or hit me i would have hit him back in self defence.
 
U

Utah_Patriot

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Jun 13, 2008
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Kearns, Utah, USA
Under Utah's new Defensive display of a weapon you would have been covered.

1) You were assaulted by a guy much larger then you that could have done serious damage.

2) You were not the instigator you were the victim this makes a huge difference

But when you get a chance please post the story
 
S

swillden

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Firestone, Colorado
On second thought

I'm not so sure that the seizure of your firearm was legal. What I didn't consider before was the fact that YOU weren't the suspect. I don't know of anything in the law that allows an officer to disarm a law-abiding citizen who is reporting a crime.

Or might there have been some question in the officer's mind as to who was the suspect and who was the victim? If there was something to give him reasonable suspicion that you were the perpetrator, then Terry v Ohio would come into play.
 
Beretta92FSLady

Beretta92FSLady

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I was holding something in my hand, and he grabbed me then pushed me down, I had no time to react...I just fell. If I was justified in showing my handgun, I would not have time to anyhow...well, until after the assault and I was yelling at him to get away from me.
 
V

Vegassteve

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Beretta92FSLady said:
*

-He handed me back my sidearm with the slide closed. I went to check if the gun was clear before I holstered it and he asked me, "what are you doing that for." He wanted me to just holster my sidearm without even checking, kinda, trust in his "good judgment" that the sidearm was cleared...I said, "to see whether there is a round chambered or not." I suppose he can hand it back however he likes, right, maybe I am just knit-picking.
Click to expand...



NEVER for any reason go near your firearm around a cop. All they need to see is you thinking about reaching for it for them to shoot you. YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL YOU OR THEY LEAVE THE SCENE TO DO YOUR CHECK.
 
CharleyMarbles

CharleyMarbles

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Vegassteve said:
NEVER for any reason go near your firearm around a cop. All they need to see is you thinking about reaching for it for them to shoot you. YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL YOU OR THEY LEAVE THE SCENE TO DO YOUR CHECK.
Click to expand...

NOT !!!!! Why would you even concider NOT makeing the firearm safe as soon as you are given possesion of it ??? If the LEO is handeling the firearm in an unsafe manner it is encumbent on you to bring this to the attention of his superiors. If it were me I would simply unload and clear the firearm at the point of return leaving the slide locked to the rear and ask the officer to have his shift Sgt.respond to the scene. All of it would be recorded on my DVR. as it happened.
FTR I would verbaly walk thru the whole unloading process so it is cought on the recording.
 
Beretta92FSLady

Beretta92FSLady

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Joined
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Vegassteve said:
NEVER for any reason go near your firearm around a cop. All they need to see is you thinking about reaching for it for them to shoot you. YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL YOU OR THEY LEAVE THE SCENE TO DO YOUR CHECK.
Click to expand...

He handed me my sidearm back with the slide closed. I was just making sure there was not a round chambered. I wasn't reaching for anything, he handed me my sidearm. I just think he should have handed to me with the slide locked back so that we both verified something in the exchange, that he is definitely handing me back an unloaded firearm and that I am receiving an unloaded firearm.

When he handed me back my mag +1 loose round it meant nothing to me. For all I know is the officer that "secured" my sidearm cleared the pipe then removed the mag...leaving a round chambered.

The officer that handed me back my sidearm wasn't even the one who "cleared" and "secured" it. he had another officer "clear" it and "secure" it in the trunk of the officer that was dealing with me. The officer that was dealing with me actually didn't know the condition of the firearm he was handing me.

This is how guns that people ASSume are unloaded turn out to be loaded when they go off.
 
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