An officer and the police chief stopped me at the Highland County Fair

It gets better

- Probably perfectly normal for a county (and might even be required); all of the county commissioners are honorary members of the agricultural society. The commissioner always liked to play like he had no idea what they do, had no connection, etc. In the interest of full disclosure, he should have told me that he was a member, even if it is honorary.

- Looking through the county records, I found a deed for a property that the AG society does actually own. It is not the fairground. The AG society has signed easements for its property(ies) as well, but nothing for the fairgrounds proper as far as I can tell so far. If they owned the fairgrounds, there would be deed(s) and at least easements. I'm going to check for county easements signed for the fair property. Just as there is no deed to the fairground in the AG society's name, there is no lease of any sort for them at that property. Per the ORC, if the county and the society purchase or lease a property together, there has to be a joint agreement drawn up. Undoubtedly, it would have to be recorded. Nothing, nada, so far!

- The constitution and bylaws of the AG society are published in this year's paper (probably required by open records law). In them, they list all of the regulations. Alcohol and lasers are prohibited but, curiously, firearms are NOT prohibited anywhere in there.


The more that I investigate, the more convinced I am that they knew full well that they couldn't legally ban firearms. Just my guess...

I'd love to find a local court case where they invoked immunity from liability, find in the transcripts where they argued that they are a political subdivision, and then present that. Nothing like that is likely to happen as I wouldn't have time in the presentation.

ETA: I used IE to view instead of FireFox (problematic with TIFF viewer) and see that they have signed some easements in the past decade but they use a different address for the property that comes up adjacent to the fairgrounds on web map sites.

JmE said:

...The more that I investigate, the more convinced I am that they knew full well that they couldn't legally ban firearms. Just my guess...

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You may be guessing about it - I'm not. Of course they know full well what the situation is. But, if they can bluff you out of exercising your rights, then by God, they're going to do so.

Sheriff responded to my email today

The Sheriff responded to my email today as he's been on vacation. Although his office hasn't contracted security for the fair the past few years, he understands and is agreement. It's no surprise to me as he's been a pro-constitution guy ever since he took office. That's why he always gets my vote.

So, the City of Hillsboro and the County of Highland shouldn't be an issue for lawful open carry. After addressing the county fair issue here, I guess it'll be time to branch out towards the surrounding towns (especially New Vienna Ohio) by informing them of the legality of open carry (and open carrying there, of course.)

Anyone in the area that wants to team up, I'm all for company in this...


ETA: I forgot to mention that the Sheriff was already aware of the Ohio AG's opinion on his own. He's an intelligent guy and one heck of a good Sheriff.

Good for you!

Maybe you can get the Sheriff to talk to the police chief - and other police chiefs in the county?

BB62 said:

Maybe you can get the Sheriff to talk to the police chief - and other police chiefs in the county?

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That's a good idea. I don't have first hand knowledge but get the impression that the Sheriff goes his own way. It's been kind of an undercurrent that he doesn't play ball with the local 'club' so I don't think that they'd listen to him. It'd be nice if he could do sort of an informational thing for the police departments in the county but I suspect that many would ignore him and berate him in the papers; telling him to mind his own business and saying that he wants the county to become the "wild, wild west." In essence, he'd likely be wasting resources, i.e. "pearls before swine." (No pun intended)

Thanks for your support and encouragement, it's made a difference for me.

Dang, I missed that fair.

JmE-

If you are on good terms with the sheriff, ask him to ask the county prosecutor for his or her opinion of the "No guns" signs at the fairgrounds.

The sheriff doesn't have to have an opinion either way, but the prosecutor is the legal counsel for the sheriff and the Ag Society. If you don't get a positive opinion from the prosecutor, that could effect what you say to the commissioners and how loudly you say it.

The Wayne county prosecutor just told the Wayne County Fair Board (part of the Ag. Society) to remove their "No guns" signage on Monday.

The Ag. Societies of both Wayne and Highland counties were formed under ORC 1711.

ORC 1711.31 gives "control and management" of property owned by the county to the Ag. Society for purposes of having a fair.

The Wayne county Ag. Society thought ORC 1711.31 gave them the right to ban firearms. It doesn't. As a public entity, they must not violate other state laws, such as ORC 9.68.

In other words, ORC 1711.31 does NOT give them the right to violate ORC 9.68.

When are you getting in front of the commissioners? I'm down to one car right now, but I might be able to stop by.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

If you are on good terms with the sheriff, ask him to ask the county prosecutor for his or her opinion of the "No guns" signs at the fairgrounds.

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I'm probably on no better terms with the sheriff than any other law abiding citizen. If he were inclined to do it at all then he'd do it regardless of who asks. I've considered asking him and it's a good suggestion; thanks. I presume that he might respond that the sheriff's department hasn't done security for the fair the last couple of years and isn't likely in the near future and then decline.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

The sheriff doesn't have to have an opinion either way, but the prosecutor is the legal counsel for the sheriff and the Ag Society. If you don't get a positive opinion from the prosecutor, that could effect what you say to the commissioners and how loudly you say it.

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He has an opinion already... he agrees with the 2005 Ohio AG opinion that the open areas of the fairgrounds can't be posted. In reference to how loudly one says it; regardless of the local prosecutor's opinion on the matter, 9.68 clearly prohibits the posting. I'm no stranger to pointing out to local officials where they are mistaken and, although it may be realized a few years later, they eventually are proven wrong. My intention is to present it as matter of fact; they cannot post and are violating the law in so doing. A concurring local prosecutor's opinion would speed up the sign removal but a contrary opinion wouldn't stop the inevitable. I don't yet know how political she (county prosecutor) is.

Sporadically, I think about saving up the filing fees to get this in the county common pleas as a civil matter. I'm reasonably sure that I could present and defend the position. Three things stop me; I'm impoverished, I wouldn't want to hurt the signage removal momentum, and I just finished a successful but bland legal dispute with the local school district (they capitulated before court so no attorney fees.) It could be done as I was directly denied the right to open carry and instructed to conceal carry with permission to go into any of the buildings. This is on audio from a ranking officer and the city police chief. They insisted that they were directly instructed by the city law director. Him and I have had personal conversations (Oh, BTW type) about it and the city park in years past. We disagreed, however, the city park signs came down soon after our conversations.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

The Wayne county prosecutor just told the Wayne County Fair Board (part of the Ag. Society) to remove their "No guns" signage on Monday.

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I read that bit of great news. I'm mulling if I should talk with the county prosecutor myself (I don't know her as she's a few years new to the job), ask the Sheriff, or just wait for the meeting. After a non-productive meeting, I don't know what would compel them to comply short of me saving my pennies to file suit or a bunch of OCers going to the overpriced fair next year. I'm one of the poorest citizens of the county but seem to be one of those that end up taking on things. I don't like the attention.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

The Ag. Societies of both Wayne and Highland counties were formed under ORC 1711.

ORC 1711.31 gives "control and management" of property owned by the county to the Ag. Society for purposes of having a fair.

The Wayne county Ag. Society thought ORC 1711.31 gave them the right to ban firearms. It doesn't. As a public entity, they must not violate other state laws, such as ORC 9.68.

In other words, ORC 1711.31 does NOT give them the right to violate ORC 9.68.

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Until the Wayne County victory, I was thinking of avoiding the "body corporate and politic" phrase as I figure that they'll jump on the corporation wording. Looking at the previously posted rough outline, I believe that there is more than enough to counter that line of reasoning.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

When are you getting in front of the commissioners? I'm down to one car right now, but I might be able to stop by.

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The meeting is on the 19th at 9:45am in the county building in the center of town; a public meeting. It means a lot that you would try, but I don't think one or two people will change officials' minds if there are boneheaded about it. I'd wager that we'd have to be a couple of "who's who" in the county or enough people to get the attention of the two local papers (both of whom have ignored me on the issue so far -- one stating that it isn't that big of an issue to cover.) In other words, I wouldn't want you to expend scarce resources simply to watch the county ignore a properly presented and legitimate citizen complaint. It would get your blood pressure up.

Of course, I wouldn't turn you down either and would happily welcome you if you showed up.

So, I typed a book again. In brief, I'm not sure what, if any steps, will be taken before the meeting and not sure how it will be handled after. They'll want to put it off until next year, no doubt. I'm not protective of how to handle this issue and am glad for any suggestions or an outright recipe that has the best chance of success.

I presented my information and the issue at the meeting this morning. Overall, it went well enough. They were very nice throughout and said that the fairground is owned by the county, save a few small pieces, perhaps. They also don't really know if they lease to the county agricultural society or what the deal is but they will find out. The county prosecutor will check things out and if, indeed, that the signs need to be removed, at least one commissioner said that he would see what could be done about getting that taken care of. That's all for now and will post when things develop.

Thanks everyone for the help and support!

You smooth operator, you! Congratulations!

JmE said:

No offense taken. In the title, "An officer and the police chief stopped me at the Highland County Fair," I meant that they verbally interrupted my forward stride and insisted that I step to another area to speak with me and subsequently ordered me to cover. When writing the title, I started to write something like, "Consensual encounter at highland county fair with officer and police chief resulted in me being told to cover" but it seemed very wordy and unnecessary. My intention was to convey as in they stopped by to chat. However, you are correct, it didn't meet the criteria for a law enforcement stop and I didn't intend to mislead anyone into thinking such.


Yes, that is understood. My issue with the county isn't over being stopped as it wasn't a law enforcement stop.


Correct and I should have used the words consensual encounter in the title. I apologize for that.

Remember, this situation is not about being stopped or not. This is about an on going issue between myself and the county about publicly prohibiting firearms in the open areas of the county fair but allowing those 'in the know' to concealed carry, even in the buildings. If they had removed the signs by now, I probably wouldn't have open carried alone this week. The plan is to get things on record at the county commissioners' meeting on the 19th so they are put on notice. If they choose to do the right thing, then great. If they do not then public record will show that they were well aware of their violation of ORC 9.68. This could help myself or anyone else that decides to open carry at the fair or anyone that concealed carries and is busted because they aren't in the local 'club'. If the presentation ends up being good enough, other people could use it, if they choose, to challenge at their county fair.

After they are put on notice in the record, if I am ever approached by law enforcement about open carrying at the fair; they will get "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" and I've pretty much told the chief that when I went less than an hour or so later to show him proof of county ownership.

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I hear ya and I agree the "big picture" needs to remain in focus. But, you consented to the "unlawful-ish" "consensual contact." If they "know" the law so to speak as you seem to imply then why did they "request" that you cover? They are members of the "CC good", "OC bad" wing of LE. If they know/knew the law then they should have never asked. Or, are you the exception and they take advantage of less knowledgeable citizens who happen to OC.

I too have written a letter to the Ag. society of Lorain county. I used a lot of what JmE had in his presentation. I'm still waiting to get my letter proofed once more. With any luck I'll send it out certified on Friday. I found out on the internet that the Ag. society does own the property. I'll wait a week or so to see if I get a response, then, probably anyway I will go to the County prosecutor with documentation.

Thanks JmE for opening a door I didn't know existed.

We're all in this together. Thank you for the hard work!

BB62 said:

You smooth operator, you! Congratulations!

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Smooth operator? More like a lazy and neurotic albatross, remember. lol Seriously though, thanks but please hold the champagne until the full figured lady sings.

Well, she sang... the signs are down. Huzzah!!!

Thanks for the help and support everyone.

Way to fix something that was egregiously broken.

Thanks.

Thanks for the kind words my friend.

Our city police chief gained a quick education that day when I returned to his office after pulling the records for fairground ownership. Needless to say, after that point in time no law abiding OCer should have trouble in the city of Hillsboro. Since it's a small town and a rural county, it seems to have had a positive ripple effect beyond just the county fairgrounds.

The local businesses, however, are another matter. Hopefully more of them will see the wisdom in promoting open carry instead of demonizing it. My assumption is that the more common it becomes on the street, the less likely these businesses will freak out over it in their shops.