Would you stop?

I was driving through Fond Du Lac Today while carrying my pistol and saw someone pulled over by a car with flashing lights but this car was not a police car, it had regular plates and was a older SUV and the driver had no uniform and basically looked like a factory worker. I thought to myself would I even pull over in this situation when I was carrying.
The driver of the SUV really did not look a cop. What would you do?

If you are being pulled over or is trying to pull you over by someone who you don't think is a LEO. Keep driving at a resonable speed. Head to some place public well lighted and with people around. If its a real LEO there soon well be marked crusiers joining in.

If you have a cell phone call 911 tell them that you are trying to be stopped by some one you don't belive is LEO and they soon well tell if is an official stop or not.

The key is to drive reasonably if it is a real LEO one doesn't want to be breaking a lot of traffic regulations.

I wouldn't insert myself into that situation unless there was obvious violence.

Nightmare said:

Really? What is the law? IIRC it's about Wisc. Stats. Ch. 300 - 350

Where I am at the moment, about 100 miles east of the express-drugway Eye-95, lights OR siren is sufficient to make a legal mandatory traffic stop.

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Kalifornia is a few miles west of here. I would check with their laws/statutes.

The person that pulled over the car had no siren that I could tell all he had was a set of flashing LED lights in his grill and
a red flashing light on his dash and the vehicle was a 2003-2004 SUV that was kind of rough looking. I do not know where
someone can buy the red and blue lights but I know you can buy amber ones at fleet farm. If this happened to me I would call 911 and inform them of the events. I was just wary because I was carrying at the time.

It sounds to me like a volunteer fire fighter pulling someone over. Without red AND blue lights I would not pull over, but would call 911 and proceed in a legal manner to follow the dispatchers instructions.

Nightmare said:

The topic is of Wisconsin's traffic stops which requires a marked vehicle and mentions that an unmarked cannot make a legal traffic stop, lights/siren is insufficient. Wisconsin Statutes ss 346.04 and case law noted there.

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You're reading that statute incorrectly. It has to do with fleeing and charging someone with fleeing/eluding. Nothing in it says an officer can't make a traffic stop in an unmarked vehicle.

The OP asked "what would you do?" Me, from the facts presented, I would not do anything ..

No, I probably wouldn't pull over for an unmarked one, unless it was into a populated area & got 911 on the phone. Too easy to impersonate an officer, and I don't want to hurt anyone.

OK, Pete, you've confused me. (Congratulations.)
Since 346.04 says that nobody can be charged with fleeing or eluding unless it's a marked vehicle (and giving a visual OR audible signal) why would someone in an unmarked car even try to do a traffic stop?
They can't enforce it unless it's a marked vehicle.
Or are you saying that even in an unmarked vehicle, that's still a "traffic officer"? (But how would someone know?)

"willful" requires a subjective understanding by the defendant that a person known by the defendant to be a traffic officer has directed the defendant to take a particular action, and with that understanding, the defendant chose to act in contravention of the officer's direction...
State v. Hanson (2012)

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MKEgal said:

OK, Pete, you've confused me. (Congratulations.)
Since 346.04 says that nobody can be charged with fleeing or eluding unless it's a marked vehicle (and giving a visual OR audible signal) why would someone in an unmarked car even try to do a traffic stop?
They can't enforce it unless it's a marked vehicle.

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Because 99.9999999999999999999999999% of traffic violators pull over for an unmarked squad. Surely you've seen them on the freeways around here. The Crown Vics have dried up for the most part. Now the unmarks are Dodge Chargers and Chevy Impalas. There are a few unmarked SUV's. Completely unmarked and the lights are set up so they can't bee identified until they are on.

Judges hate them. No agency I know of would allow one to be used in a pursuit or road block. But they work well for Super-Slab Star Wars or sitting in a parking lot running Lidar. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

I would not stop for an unmarked "police" vehicle. When I lived in Florida there were some "people" driving around with the blue blinking lights next to or in their head lights. They thought it was fun to flip the lights on and make people get out of their way or stop. They (He?) went too far one day when they pulled that stunt on an off duty officer. He had a REAL police vehicle stop and arrest the driver. These days you never know who is or isn't a police officer unless the officer appears to be an officer in every regard. Better safe than sorry.

rcawdor57 said:

I would not stop for an unmarked "police" vehicle. When I lived in Florida there were some "people" driving around with the blue blinking lights next to or in their head lights. They thought it was fun to flip the lights on and make people get out of their way or stop. They (He?) went too far one day when they pulled that stunt on an off duty officer. He had a REAL police vehicle stop and arrest the driver. These days you never know who is or isn't a police officer unless the officer appears to be an officer in every regard. Better safe than sorry.

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Lbertarianism cures this. No libertarian would be caught dead impersonating an agent of the state.

I will stop but if a plain clothes or black clad ninja exits, I am outta there. I will then call in a police impersonator and let the marked units figure it out.

pkbites said:

sitting in a parking lot running Lidar. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

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That makes sense, and seems to be a good use for them.
But then we get into questions like how can an officer write a ticket saying he witnessed a car driving X mph when he really didn't? Isn't that lying on a legal document*?
And wouldn't both the lidar officer & the ticket agent have to appear in court to testify against the driver?

*(don't get me started)

MKEgal said:

That makes sense, and seems to be a good use for them.
But then we get into questions like how can an officer write a ticket saying he witnessed a car driving X mph when he really didn't? Isn't that lying on a legal document*?
And wouldn't both the lidar officer & the ticket agent have to appear in court to testify against the driver?

*(don't get me started)

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Yes if the case goes to trial they both show up. They each testify to the part they played.

MKEgal said:

That makes sense, and seems to be a good use for them.
But then we get into questions like how can an officer write a ticket saying he witnessed a car driving X mph when he really didn't? Isn't that lying on a legal document*?
And wouldn't both the lidar officer & the ticket agent have to appear in court to testify against the driver?

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I'm confused by this post. There wouldn't be 2 officers involved. One officer in an unmarked car either parked in a public lot, or on the street parallel parked between some cars. Motorists zip right past unaware it's a squad car.

*Zap* with a hand held lasar (lidar) or radar gun. Why on Earth would there be 2 officers involved?

We used chase cars all the time have one speed equipment operator and several chase cars. Just like using an airplane with VASCAR. The LIDAR operator gives the speed and vehicle ifomation to the proper chase car. The chase car writes the citation the LIDAR operator finds another violator gives them to the next chase car.

With 4 or 5 chase cars a large number of citations are issued with in short order.

doesnt an officer have to show you the radar, lidar reading if the driver requests it?
i was always told they had to and if they couldnt provide it the judge dismissed the case i have never tested that but i have asked to see my reading before (back in high school i as the only car on the road and didnt believe the officer on how fast he said i was going speedometer was a little off)

Firearms Iinstuctor said:

We used chase cars all the time have one speed equipment operator and several chase cars. Just like using an airplane with VASCAR. The LIDAR operator gives the speed and vehicle ifomation to the proper chase car. The chase car writes the citation the LIDAR operator finds another violator gives them to the next chase car.

With 4 or 5 chase cars a large number of citations are issued with in short order.

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This is called "daisy chaining" and it can be done using any speed device, radar, etc. I'm thinking some here are unaware of handheld laser/radar units and how they work. It only takes one officer.

oliverclotheshoff said:

doesnt an officer have to show you the radar, lidar reading if the driver requests it?
i was always told they had to and if they couldnt provide it the judge dismissed the case

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NO. You were told wrong. This is 100% incorrect, at least in Wisconsin it is. I never show anyone a speed reading. It is a boon to my safety to keep a violator in their car unless I absolutely have to have then get them out. It is for their safety also. Especially on a busy highway.

MKEgal said:

That makes sense, and seems to be a good use for them.
But then we get into questions like how can an officer write a ticket saying he witnessed a car driving X mph when he really didn't? Isn't that lying on a legal document*?
And wouldn't both the lidar officer & the ticket agent have to appear in court to testify against the driver?

*(don't get me started)

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Yes, both the laser user and the chase car cop are required to appear, otherwise you can object everything as hearsay.
Now there are very few small town judges who actually follow the law, and refuse to toss the case, and appealing is cost prohibitive, so have the law and caselaw printed (there is a ton of it out there on this very specific topic) to educate the judge. It is also beneficial to have the operations manual for the laser unit with you where the manufacturer states limitations.
Also, anything over 1000 feet when laser is used is questionable due to the sighting apparatus and a hand-held laser unit not being accurate at that range. they could be sweeping cars over a several yard range both next to you, in front and behind you. There is no visible laser marks on the target vehicles to verify that they are on target. Many have FOIA'd cops handgun shooting qualifications to show how inaccurate they are at 20 feet, now imagine something 10 times heavier being held steady without a tripod with a zero magnification sight, and over 300 yards.
The LTI 20/20 (the Geico gun) was proven to show stationary objects traveling at speed due to slight movement of the unit while targeting. A defense attorney showed a courtroom wall to be moving in excess of 30 MPH during a trial.