When to contact the attorney general or VCDL

TacticalTuckFard said:

I couldn't have done anything more today. He refused my defacto by saying he didn't have access to my application, lying or not.

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Don't worry about it, you're doing fine. Just keep the pressure on them.

Do you know if you spoke to the 'actual' Clerk of Court... or one of the 'assistants'? If you didn't speak to the actual clerk, request to speak directly with them regarding your issue. They may be more helpful (perhaps not....).

Blk97F150 said:

Don't worry about it, you're doing fine. Just keep the pressure on them.

Do you know if you spoke to the 'actual' Clerk of Court... or one of the 'assistants'? If you didn't speak to the actual clerk, request to speak directly with them regarding your issue. They may be more helpful (perhaps not....).

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I spoke directly to the clerk. If he "can't get to my application" tomorrow, I'll have to take legal action against them. What I'm trying to find out is "What can I do and who do I contact from here?"

I would love to go down there and raise Cain, but that won't do much for my fellow citizens who apply later. I want to get the people responsible for this fired, or fined, etc...

TacticalTuckFard said:

I couldn't have done anything more today. He refused my defacto by saying he didn't have access to my application, lying or not.

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How does a Clerk of the Circuit Court not have access to a record of the Circuit Court, to which he is charged with maintaining as the Custodian?

Is there a mouse running around with a file in his mouth, or is the Clerk just THAT inept at his job?

ProShooter said:

How does a Clerk of the Circuit Court not have access to a record of the Circuit Court, to which he is charged with maintaining as the Custodian?

Is there a mouse running around with a file in his mouth, or is the Clerk just THAT inept at his job?

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My guess is he outright lied to me.

TacticalTuckFard said:

I spoke directly to the clerk. If he "can't get to my application" tomorrow, I'll have to take legal action against them. What I'm trying to find out is "What can I do and who do I contact from here?"

I would love to go down there and raise Cain, but that won't do much for my fellow citizens who apply later. I want to get the people responsible for this fired, or fined, etc...

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Have you been reading what Grapeshot and others have been writing up there? Demand the stupid defacto permit, accept only YES for an answer. That is the code, and they shall follow it. Demand it.

TacticalTuckFard said:

I spoke directly to the clerk. If he "can't get to my application" tomorrow, I'll have to take legal action against them. What I'm trying to find out is "What can I do and who do I contact from here?"

I would love to go down there and raise Cain, but that won't do much for my fellow citizens who apply later. I want to get the people responsible for this fired, or fined, etc...

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As you may have picked up on in other threads.... there isn't much 'punishment' that can happen. Recently a member here was involved in an issue with a clerk who wasn't following the Code and had to file a Writ against the clerk. That got them moving, and they complied at that point... but there was no 'penalty'.... just sort of comply and move on. Unfortunately. :banghead:

gutshot said:

I'm very sorry that you took my remarks as a criticism of your actions. I only wanted to point out that they didn't do what they had promised to do and that being nice to these people only encourages them to disregard citizens even more. As far as what else you could have done, you could have done today what you say you'll do tomorrow. After all, you did ask for advice. I'm sorry that my advice did not fit your needs. It is your permit and your local government. Handle it any way you think best for you.

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Do you have some special sight impairment Gutshot?

TacticalTuckFard said:

I spoke directly to the clerk. If he "can't get to my application" tomorrow, I'll have to take legal action against them. What I'm trying to find out is "What can I do and who do I contact from here?"

I would love to go down there and raise Cain, but that won't do much for my fellow citizens who apply later. I want to get the people responsible for this fired, or fined, etc...

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I think you need a little help tomorrow. I'm going to make a call down there in the morning if you don't mind.

TacticalTuckFard said:

I spoke directly to the clerk. If he "can't get to my application" tomorrow, I'll have to take legal action against them. What I'm trying to find out is "What can I do and who do I contact from here?"

I would love to go down there and raise Cain, but that won't do much for my fellow citizens who apply later. I want to get the people responsible for this fired, or fined, etc...

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A Writ of Mandamus could run as much as 4K to 5K unless you are a super legal beagle to go pro se and once he is served he'll just issue the permit thereby making the suit pointless.

A phone call to the Va Supreme Court Clerk would, I think, make some serious headway. She is in a superior/supervisory position over all Circuit Court clerks.

peter nap said:

Do you have some special sight impairment Gutshot?

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Yes he does.

IanB said:

Have you been reading what Grapeshot and others have been writing up there? Demand the stupid defacto permit, accept only YES for an answer. That is the code, and they shall follow it. Demand it.

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Thanks for all the replies guys. Ian, I have been reading all the posts. I was just explaining to gutshot why I'm here and what information I'm seeking.

peter nap said:

I think you need a little help tomorrow. I'm going to make a call down there in the morning if you don't mind.

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I'd appreaciate it. First let me head down there tomorrow and see if they really got my permit ready. I made the mistake of compromising that I would wait until tomorrow so I will give them until tomorrow. I'll call them at 1:30PM-2:00PM (before their supposed lunch.) If it doesn't work out and they won't issue me my permit or defacto, I'll let you guys know and by all means call and bug the piss out of them. We'll raise an army of people to call them if we have to.

Keep the heat on them

Remember, You the citizen, are requiring the drone, who's salary you are paying, to do the job they are required to, by law, that they are being paid to do, that is the job they signed up for. You are NOT making any extraordinary demand of them. You are expecting them to do their damned job. You have caught them not doing their job and they are squirming. Accept no excuses tomorrow. They are in violation of the conditions of their employment if nothing else.

If we were making a movie out of this, you would call the Clerk of the Supreme Court of Virginia ahead of time, and explain what was going on and arrange to have them near their phone at the time of your visit. Then when you get no cooperation, flip out your cell phone, dial the clerk, say, Hi, yeah it's me. Then hold out the phone for the local Clerk, and say, "The Supreme Court of Virginia is calling. It's for you."



TFred

TacticalTuckFard said:

I spoke to the circuit court clerk and asked for my de facto. He said he was on lunch and told me to come back later. This was at 2:15PM. I sat down and waited in the office. After I stuck around, he then told me he didn't know when he could issue it because it was in the judges office and the judge was out. I was nice and explained that it was nothing against the court and that I only wanted there to be a record that the court was late issuing my permit. He accused me of having a vendetta against him and told me that they held me on the background check to conduct a more thorough one because I didn't consent to the search to enter the courthouse when I first applied.

I also found out that they had contacted my personal acquaintances to question them about me.

He told me they would issue my actual permit tomorrow and there was no need for a de facto permit, thus no record the court was late.

I'm a little upset to say the least.

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And we are giving these egregious allegations a pass? Totally unacceptable. It sure would be nice if you had a witness or voice recorder running.

Possible denial loophole

TacticalTuckFard said:

I spoke to the circuit court clerk and asked for my de facto. He said he was on lunch and told me to come back later. This was at 2:15PM. I sat down and waited in the office. After I stuck around, he then told me he didn't know when he could issue it because it was in the judges office and the judge was out. I was nice and explained that it was nothing against the court and that I only wanted there to be a record that the court was late issuing my permit. He accused me of having a vendetta against him and told me that they held me on the background check to conduct a more thorough one because I didn't consent to the search to enter the courthouse when I first applied.

I also found out that they had contacted my personal acquaintances to question them about me.
He told me they would issue my actual permit tomorrow and there was no need for a de facto permit, thus no record the court was late.

I'm a little upset to say the least.

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Their contacting of your acquaintances might be evidence that they are/were looking for a reason to deny you under this section. Although VA is shall issue this section appear like it can be used/ abused as a loophole around it. I am not sure how often in practice it is actually used; does anyone here know? I am very curious if this is only a theoretical possibility or if it actually occurs much in the real world? Anyhow I suspect that you made someone at the court house mad and they are/were trying to get a leg to stand on to deny you.

Persons Not Qualified to Obtain a Permit – Section 18.2-308.09
13. An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm#App_Not_Complete_45

P.S. If you are eventually denied then you could always get a nonresident Florida permit etc as I think it is highly unlikely that any other state would go to such lengths to deny you.

TacticalTuckFard said:

I spoke to the circuit court clerk and asked for my de facto. He said he was on lunch and told me to come back later. This was at 2:15PM. I sat down and waited in the office. After I stuck around, he then told me he didn't know when he could issue it because it was in the judges office and the judge was out. I was nice and explained that it was nothing against the court and that I only wanted there to be a record that the court was late issuing my permit. He accused me of having a vendetta against him and told me that they held me on the background check to conduct a more thorough one because I didn't consent to the search to enter the courthouse when I first applied.

I also found out that they had contacted my personal acquaintances to question them about me.

He told me they would issue my actual permit tomorrow and there was no need for a de facto permit, thus no record the court was late.

I'm a little upset to say the least.

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I somehow missed this.

Please ask your friends if they were contacted by the Clerk or the Sherrif or anybody else. If they say they were contacted, ask them to write out a statement giving as many details (who, when, where, by what means, questions asked) as they can remember, and then to take that writing down to their local bank and have it notarized as a statement made under oath. It's not as good as a full deposition, but a lot faster and cheaper. Hold on to the originals (maybe even have copies made and notarized as True Copies) - that's a service the Clerk of the Circuit Court provides, BTW. (Also any notary can do it.) You could even ask to have the copies entered into the court's Deed Book. (A written request is more fun, as it requires a written response.)

Proof of extra-legal shinnanigans would really brighten up the day for the Secretary of the Supreme Court. I hear it's been a really long time since they have officially disciplined a Clerk.

Since when do Court Clerk offices (even in podunk Accomack County) close for lunch? That's an entirely new one for me.

Are you beginning to get a feeling of just how much and how badly they have been screwing with you? Even if you walk out of there today with your CHP (the cardboard one as specified in the Code of Virginia) you ought to follow up on all of this. Not just for your sake, but to spread the word to all the other Clerks that we will not let them get away with this sort of behavior.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

I somehow missed this.

Please ask your friends if they were contacted by the Clerk or the Sherrif or anybody else. If they say they were contacted, ask them to write out a statement giving as many details (who, when, where, by what means, questions asked) as they can remember, and then to take that writing down to their local bank and have it notarized as a statement made under oath. It's not as good as a full deposition, but a lot faster and cheaper. Hold on to the originals (maybe even have copies made and notarized as True Copies) - that's a service the Clerk of the Circuit Court provides, BTW. (Also any notary can do it.) You could even ask to have the copies entered into the court's Deed Book. (A written request is more fun, as it requires a written response.)

Proof of extra-legal shinnanigans would really brighten up the day for the Secretary of the Supreme Court. I hear it's been a really long time since they have officially disciplined a Clerk.

Since when do Court Clerk offices (even in podunk Accomack County) close for lunch? That's an entirely new one for me.

Are you beginning to get a feeling of just how much and how badly they have been screwing with you? Even if you walk out of there today with your CHP (the cardboard one as specified in the Code of Virginia) you ought to follow up on all of this. Not just for your sake, but to spread the word to all the other Clerks that we will not let them get away with this sort of behavior.

stay safe.

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Skidmark et. al,

Are there any laws/ procedures which would have been broken by this "extensive" background check? How often have you heard of part 13 (government official or competent person thinks you would be dangerous/ negligent) being used to deny a permit? It seems like this could be abused by some officials. I looked into it and saw that Pennsylvania has a "Character Clause" which has been used to revoke some permits. I see such inclusions into shall issue statutes as a mess waiting to happen.

TFred said:

If we were making a movie out of this, you would call the Clerk of the Supreme Court of Virginia ahead of time, and explain what was going on and arrange to have them near their phone at the time of your visit. Then when you get no cooperation, flip out your cell phone, dial the clerk, say, Hi, yeah it's me. Then hold out the phone for the local Clerk, and say, "The Supreme Court of Virginia is calling. It's for you."



TFred

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Generally no cell phones are permitted in the clerk's office, but you could ask to use their phone for an "emergency" phone call

paramedic70002 said:

And we are giving these egregious allegations a pass? Totally unacceptable. It sure would be nice if you had a witness or voice recorder running.

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No recorders permitted either - a witness would be good!!

Mongoose72 said:

Their contacting of your acquaintances might be evidence that they are/were looking for a reason to deny you under this section. Although VA is shall issue this section appear like it can be used/ abused as a loophole around it. I am not sure how often in practice it is actually used; does anyone here know? I am very curious if this is only a theoretical possibility or if it actually occurs much in the real world? Anyhow I suspect that you made someone at the court house mad and they are/were trying to get a leg to stand on to deny you.

Persons Not Qualified to Obtain a Permit – Section 18.2-308.09
13. An individual who the court finds, by a preponderance of the evidence, based on specific acts by the applicant, is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth may submit to the court a sworn written statement indicating that, in the opinion of such sheriff, chief of police, or attorney for the Commonwealth, based upon a disqualifying conviction or upon the specific acts set forth in the statement, the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently to endanger others. The statement of the sheriff, chief of police, or the attorney for the Commonwealth shall be based upon personal knowledge of such individual or of a deputy sheriff, police officer, or assistant attorney for the Commonwealth of the specific acts, or upon a written statement made under oath before a notary public of a competent person having personal knowledge of the specific acts.
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm#App_Not_Complete_45

P.S. If you are eventually denied then you could always get a nonresident Florida permit etc as I think it is highly unlikely that any other state would go to such lengths to deny you.

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Nothing, repeat nothing, authorizes the Clerk to do any investigation. Contacting friends or neighbor is extra-legal, heresay at best (no personal knowledge)

IMHO - this Clerk needs to have his butt nailed to the wall!

Grapeshot said:

Nothing, repeat nothing, authorizes the Clerk to do any investigation. Contacting friends or neighbor is extra-legal, heresay at best (no personal knowledge)

IMHO - this Clerk needs to have his butt nailed to the wall!

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And that I shall do. regardless of whether my permit is issued or not, I will be contacting the VA supreme court clerk. He let a name slip when he mentioned the extensive background check. I contacted the said person and he confirmed that the clerk did contact him and ask him questions about me.