First Ak or AR open carry!!!!!!

MilProGuy said:

Carrying long guns (rifles, shotguns, muzzle loaders, tactical rifles, etc.) out in public into a coffee shop, restaurant, city park, or the shopping mall, etc., is just asking for trouble.

Those who participate in such a public display will certainly get what they are craving....ATTENTION!

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I don't think my OC brothers and sisters are carrying for attention. Their reasons include mainly self defense and outreach. It's just that we are not in a secure position to do this more then one or two legislative cycles. We need a kind of OC Hippocratic oath: do no legislative harm.

Puleeze. Every single OCer I have ever dealt with is carrying for attention. It doesn't take a degree in psychology to see it in their behavior and mannerisms. More often than not it's blatantly obvious.

hoffmang said:

Let's clarify something here.

Do I think people should start UOCing long guns, nope. I expect we'll just create AB-145... As I originally predicted UOC in California would only succeed at getting UOC banned.

However, since this community doesn't care to listen to me generally I have one specific ask. Please don't chose an AR/AK/FAL or other guns that but for featurelessness or bullet buttons would be prohibited semiautomatics.

Standard shotguns, long guns - stick to that. Please keep the damage confined to the general class of long arms and not the politically vulnerable class of military looking rifles.

I mean, if you're trying to make a point, carry an M1, M1 Carbine, or lever action. Those are the traditional guns to open carry. Just ask the Black Panthers.

-Gene

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That's all I own anyway, and I'm too poor for new stuff. For once I agree with your effort (as pertaining to OC). I think that we would be exhibiting an ages old practice by carrying the basic rifle or shotgun, and while that is enough for outreach, it will not alienate a bigger majority of pro gun people as more aggressive looking and less traditional ones would. Our strategy on this would be to incorporate outreach for safe use and promotion of the sport and self-reliance that are associated with ownership and use. It's pretty hard to do that if you don't have a firearm to show, but it also doesn't have a look that invokes apprehension. Guns invoke enough of that already. One of the reasons (not the entire one) I don't attend the gun gatherings at restaurants and such was that it seemed a little ingenuine to me. Nobody was going hunting, shooting, or educating really. The latter one did have some educational effect, but mostly incidental. If you're going to educate, set up a booth or table, and pass out fliers and give speeches with your firearms with you. I'm not denouncing the efforts of others who have held the meetings in the past, but just sharing an opinion. I don't know everything, so I am not trying to berate. This is what I'll be doing though, and we;ll see how it goes. My last rifle hike to the gun range was far less tumultuous than the one before it, and maybe fine tuning or even re-tooling as we go is a good thing as opposed to hey-diddle-diddle, straight-up-the-middle.

Hey guys, not from California, but from NC. First off Im really sorry about browns treasonist bill he signed. Now, I love the idea of a long gun protest,step back a minute. How about a protest with correct time of the revolution black powder rifles only. Here in NC, muzzle loaders are not considered firearms,this will be very confusing to the sheep, but with the right signs, and a good bunch of planners,I think the measage will be clear and no one can use the AR<AK against you, which they will. Just my opinion. We had an OC restore the constitution rally a couple of years ago, went real well. We were carrying ARs and Aks plus much more, but it was planned and advertised.

wethepeople said:

Hey guys, not from California, but from NC. First off Im really sorry about browns treasonist bill he signed. Now, I love the idea of a long gun protest,step back a minute. How about a protest with correct time of the revolution black powder rifles only. Here in NC, muzzle loaders are not considered firearms,this will be very confusing to the sheep, but with the right signs, and a good bunch of planners,I think the measage will be clear and no one can use the AR<AK against you, which they will.

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I don't think there are that many people among us that have black powder weapons, or the knowledge it takes to use them. Plus, I opine that they are too quaint to be effective communicators or inspirational.

donny said:

Puleeze. Every single OCer I have ever dealt with is carrying for attention. It doesn't take a degree in physiology to see it in their behavior and mannerisms. More often than not it's blatantly obvious.

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You should change your circle to include more normal people.....

at this point, flintlock/percussion muzzle loaders. Don't forget your tricorn hats.





I turn left way better then you.

Lovenox said:

Who are these allies you speak of? Apparently, not enough to block this stupid POS law. Go for broke.

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Well...in this case going for broke will most assuredly result in you lying face down on the ground with guns pointed at your head and your rights trampled. I get the point you're trying to make, everyone does. It's very transparent, but before engaging in battle you must size up the opposition and quite frankly your outnumbered and outgunned. Besides bringing pain on yourself, probably physically, emotionally and financially, you should reconsider your tactics. Look at what happened with Open Carry. It became an issue and because it became an issue, it became a target and now that right has been taken away. What do you honestly expect to happen when you go waltzing down the street while carrying an AK, AR or both? You are inviting trouble...whether it's your right or not. Discernment is the best weapon. I feel your approach could very easily escalate rapidly when someone makes a phone call to police. Nobody is going to see you as a peaceable person exercising your rights. They will most likely see you as an extremist with "assault weapons". In a post 9/11 world, the police response will be swift and most likely very harsh.

I sincerely hope you do not go through with it, or this could quite possibly be the last post you ever write. Think it through....it's not worth it.

Don Tomas said:

Well...in this case going for broke will most assuredly result in you lying face down on the ground with guns pointed at your head and your rights trampled. I get the point you're trying to make, everyone does. It's very transparent, but before engaging in battle you must size up the opposition and quite frankly your outnumbered and outgunned. Besides bringing pain on yourself, probably physically, emotionally and financially, you should reconsider your tactics. Look at what happened with Open Carry. It became an issue and because it became an issue, it became a target and now that right has been taken away. What do you honestly expect to happen when you go waltzing down the street while carrying an AK, AR or both? You are inviting trouble...whether it's your right or not. Discernment is the best weapon. I feel your approach could very easily escalate rapidly when someone makes a phone call to police. Nobody is going to see you as a peaceable person exercising your rights. They will most likely see you as an extremist with "assault weapons". In a post 9/11 world, the police response will be swift and most likely very harsh.

I sincerely hope you do not go through with it, or this could quite possibly be the last post you ever write. Think it through....it's not worth it.

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My first experience was as you mentioned. but successive events have been without incident. I don't use the souped up looking rifles, but at least it has been proven that things get better when you tailor your effort. One thing I see will definately happen, and that's that if we do nothing at all, the right will be dissolved at the same rate or faster than it has in the past. You cannot argue that things go downhill without our effort. Criminals and their victims will be our only representation in the gun ownership/use media arena if we aren't there.

Don Tomas said:

Well...in this case going for broke will most assuredly result in you lying face down on the ground with guns pointed at your head and your rights trampled. I get the point you're trying to make, everyone does. It's very transparent, but before engaging in battle you must size up the opposition and quite frankly your outnumbered and outgunned. Besides bringing pain on yourself, probably physically, emotionally and financially, you should reconsider your tactics. Look at what happened with Open Carry. It became an issue and because it became an issue, it became a target and now that right has been taken away. What do you honestly expect to happen when you go waltzing down the street while carrying an AK, AR or both? You are inviting trouble...whether it's your right or not. Discernment is the best weapon. I feel your approach could very easily escalate rapidly when someone makes a phone call to police. Nobody is going to see you as a peaceable person exercising your rights. They will most likely see you as an extremist with "assault weapons". In a post 9/11 world, the police response will be swift and most likely very harsh.

I sincerely hope you do not go through with it, or this could quite possibly be the last post you ever write. Think it through....it's not worth it.

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But by the same token one can argue that one was "inviting trouble" by simply OC'ing a pistol hence now you find yourself in the predicament that you and your collegues now find yourselfs in. Let me temper my statement by stating that I am no "militant" by any strectch of the imagination, however at what point do you just lay down? As with anything there is a middle ground but you are not going to change many minds with Liberal population densities occupying the major metropolitian areas within California. What I find missing in our struggle is a robust legal plan. It isn't enough to walk around OC'ing to normalize ourselfs to the populus at large , we must protect the movement with a coherent, zealous legal counsel. And until we close that loop we are merely treading water and California is treading on the Constitution. I cannot fathom that as many gunowners that reside in California this got through...

What about my SKS? Think that is more palatable or will the folding bayonet make the sheeple faint?

Save Our State said:

My first experience was as you mentioned. but successive events have been without incident. I don't use the souped up looking rifles, but at least it has been proven that things get better when you tailor your effort. One thing I see will definately happen, and that's that if we do nothing at all, the right will be dissolved at the same rate or faster than it has in the past. You cannot argue that things go downhill without our effort. Criminals and their victims will be our only representation in the gun ownership/use media arena if we aren't there.

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In light of the recent death of Kelly Thomas, an unarmed homeless person who was murdered by Fullerton Police, I think it's worth reconsidering your game plan. This man was held down by 6 cops and beaten to death....this to an unarmed man who had been subdued and was incapacitated posing not threat to the lives of the cops. Yet, he's dead. I can only imagine the reaction you will get while carrying one or more rifles in public. To add to this, just today 6 people were shot to death and 3 critically injured when a man entered a hair salon in Sunset Beach, CA and opened fire. With recent events, people are on high alert and any message you plan on delivering will be obscured by the emotions from all the recent tragedies. Trust me on this, you will not be well received and I fear it won't end well for you.

Don Tomas said:

In light of the recent death of Kelly Thomas, an unarmed homeless person who was murdered by Fullerton Police, I think it's worth reconsidering your game plan. This man was held down by 6 cops and beaten to death....this to an unarmed man who had been subdued and was incapacitated posing not threat to the lives of the cops. Yet, he's dead. I can only imagine the reaction you will get while carrying one or more rifles in public. To add to this, just today 6 people were shot to death and 3 critically injured when a man entered a hair salon in Sunset Beach, CA and opened fire. With recent events, people are on high alert and any message you plan on delivering will be obscured by the emotions from all the recent tragedies. Trust me on this, you will not be well received and I fear it won't end well for you.

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I've already done this more than once. And as long as we do nothing, the hair salon experience will be what people will associate with guns; Not the zillion gun owners that DIDN'T do that. I am attempting counter-balance here. The media scours the country for events like the hair salon so they can give the hand-wringers fuel to keep going. Without any balance the public will be swayed eventually. Maybe sooner than eventually

hgreen said:

Not sure who you are lecturing on the situation in CA, everyone here knows its stacked. Secondly, you should reread the post you quoted, no one is saying they wont ban long gun carry, in fact they may ban it regardless if a single person LGOCs.

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While you're no doubt correct that the Legislature may attempt to require all firearms to be locked up except when employed in some otherwise lawful act (e.g. licensed carry under PC 26150, hunting, in the home for self-defense), your statement can easily be viewed as a clever attempt to preemptively shirk responsibility for cause and effect. I think it's irresponsible to allocate responsibility for AB 144 (and its predecessors) solely upon those who chose to UOC. It's equally irresponsible to allocate none. The same will hold true for whatever comes from the practice of unloaded long gun open carry.

The point is that just because there are those that seek to take your freedoms does not mean you should shy from excersizing them.

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No, but purposefully ignoring the dynamics of warfare is imprudent leadership.

If you don't like the stacked deck in CA, leave!

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I'd rather stay and fight for the people who can't simply vote with their feet. To each his own.

It is not getting better there in terms of having any hope of electing representatives with conservative values.

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I don't disagree. I don't believe civil rights are a uniquely "conservative" platform component; I also don't think they are a "liberal" platform component. Both seem to infringe on rights and expand government powers when it suits them. (Disclosure: I'm a libertarian.) The majority of the voting public may continue to demand expensive programs that it cannot afford, but that doesn't preclude better representation of fundamental civil rights (including gun rights and self-defense) by the elected officials. The state might very well go broke, but that doesn't mean we cannot preserve people's right and ability to defend themselves by pushing the politics of self-defense to our favor. (Yes, that's an ambitious goal, but not an impossible one.)

hgreen said:

EXACTLY! How many years have the "big" gun rights groups in California been saying "don't go ruffle feathers", just wait "two more weeks", etc. over and over again... Meanwhile the VAST VAST majority of Californian's remain unable to defend themselves in public...

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And with the ban on UOC, even fewer will be able to carry guns. I suppose you think that is a net win?

Enter the OC movement (focusing on CA for now since if we consider the OC movement anywhere else in the country it TOTALLY blows all your arguments out of the water since there have been no bans on OC outside of CA since the OC movement went mainstream and the VAST majority of the OCers are carrying LOADED and LONG GUNs on occasion)... No one was OCing for the sake of preventing a ban.

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How many of those states had either (A) constitutional protection of open carry, (B) a political dynamic favorable to gun rights, and/or (C) some substantive period of time with shall-issue (or "constitutional") carry to affect the public's understanding of bearing arms as something which does not cause shootouts en masse? The question is not rhetorical.

People were OCing because it was the best available, legal, means they had to defend themselves

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Those are certainly some reasons; explain the practice, then, in those areas where loaded carry was available to law-abiding residents.

PLUS it had the added benefit of being a great conversation starter which lead to literally thousands more people learning about their 2A rights and becoming active in the 2A community (whether they chose to OC or not).

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Define active. How are you measuring this "activity"? I'm honestly curious to see the data on this. (Note: I don't mean to imply that I question the assertions, and I'm sure you're correct on some level. It's the "thousands" and "active" qualifiers I am curious about.)

Lets be honest for a minute, the anti's didn't ban open carry because soccer moms were scared of seeing guns, unless you believe the bull **** they say to justify their gun control measures. They banned it because they want power and they want to limit our ability to effectively educate gun rights to the people. People that are educated about their rights (regardless of whether they exercise them) are a THREAT to the CA political establishment AND THEY KNOW IT.

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I think the first statement is disingenuous; however, notwithstanding that I think the tone of your subsequent statements are more conspiratorial than necessary to explain the actual politics of guns in California (largely a class issue of LE establishment and union protectionism vs. "civilian" self-reliance), I agree that the ban does reflect the government securing more power to itself and silencing a manner of protest.

Yes, I say EFFECTIVELY because how many other 2A rallies in CA garnered such media attention in the last decade? The few SBOC events I had the privilege of organizing received TV news coverage and print coverage more than I can count, resulting in literally thousands of people learning about their 2A rights in California. The last "2A" rally I saw attempted by another pro-2A rights group occurred in down-town LA and barely got back page print press on one (maybe two) outlets, how's that for effective??

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We've created an environment in which millions of Californians can now arm themselves with loaded guns. We've undermined core anti-gun arguments in public and in courts. We've challenged law enforcement officials to follow the laws they took an oath to uphold. That, to me, is measurable effective product.

I don't dispute that open carry in California has had some positive effects. I don't understand why you would argue that the volume of press clippings, or the page number from which they came, is the proper measure of success. If you agree that the mainstream media outlets are generally actively anti-gun, wouldn't it hold that editors/producers of that ilk would ensure the most effective pro-gun news would be 'out of sight' on the "back page", or suppressed entirely?

-Brandon

donny said:

Puleeze. Every single OCer I have ever dealt with is carrying for attention. It doesn't take a degree in physiology to see it in their behavior and mannerisms. More often than not it's blatantly obvious.

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You have never dealt with me then. I carry to keep myself safe and my wife safe. My wife carries for the same reason. If conceal carry was a right in my state, I would cover my gun with my shirt (it would still be imprinting, but I would cover it up at least... it is incredibly uncomfortable for me to wear IWB holsters and whatnot). Only once have I gotten attention from anyone while OC. Hell, my mom is completely against OC and she does not notice my gun when I am carrying unless it is pertenant (such as when I went with them on a boat ride and was taking off my shirt and removing my gun to jump into the water, she was all "Holy crap! I didn't even notice you had your gun!" I told her that that was the point, that the majority of people do NOT notice a gun on your hip, at least thats how it has been for me).

Perhaps you are on the wrong message board?

not like this ended badly

CA's first major gun control law was passed as a result of this. AND BLACKS WERE SYMPATHETIC.



You think a bunch of white dudes walking around with ANY rifle are going to fare any better?

How can people think that doing the same thing, and getting the same result is not a logical dynamic. Folks who think RIFLE OC is "ok" are like folks who think that down is up and black is white. At some point, you doubt their ability to think rationally. Regular UOC is actually kind of cool sometimes, but THIS?

Just stupid.

donny said:

Puleeze. Every single OCer I have ever dealt with is carrying for attention.

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You may need to a see a psychiatrist for projection issues.

donny said:

It doesn't take a degree in physiology to see it in their behavior and mannerisms. More often than not it's blatantly obvious.

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You're correct. It would not take a degree in physiology. This ends the potential for meaningful discourse with you.

May your future societal projection issue not lead you any more to self denigration.

ETA: read your posts. You are a video gamer? You do not even live in the real world in your own state, and yet you wish to opine on something 2000 miles away, that I am actually "touching" (in that I am one of the people in this state who SETS gun policy). You are simply not connected to reality, son. Are you like 22 or so? Or are you a grown up?

I am thinking you are just kind of speculating at this point. What experience do YOU, PERSONALLY, have with politics, media, PR, organizing, or civil rights? I am thinking, and again this is based on you OWN post history, that the answer is ZERO. So, YOU are exactly the mythical pizza delivery kid that I tell people about. The internet kind of empowers you to spread crap. It is a nice feeling, isn't it? The only issue son is that we are talking about real people here. Rifle open carry AT THE VERY LEAST will result in bad laws. At the very worst, it will cause people to die. Think about your words young man. You are not helping people here, PLEASE grow up.

;-)

----------

You do not even live in this state and you are making TWO MISTAKES:

1) Donny is extremely smart and educated, if it's who I think it is.

2) To the extent that ANY person wants to take an action that WILL cause measurable harm to our rights, and this action IS SO OBVIOUSLY HARMFUL, there IS something wrong with their mental processing. That is an objective truth and not a subjective opinion.

Why do you keep advocating things that WILL hurt us here in Cali?

What is your agenda, and who do you represent?

slowfiveoh said:

You may need to a see a psychiatrist for projection issues.





You're correct. It would not take a degree in physiology. This ends the potential for meaningful discourse with you.

May your future societal projection issue not lead you any more to self denigration.

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Oaklander said:

CA's first major gun control law was passed as a result of this. AND BLACKS WERE SYMPATHETIC.

You think a bunch of white dudes walking around with ANY rifle are going to fare any better?

How can people think that doing the same thing, and getting the same result is not a logical dynamic. Folks who think RIFLE OC is "ok" are like folks who think that down is up and black is white. At some point, you doubt their ability to think rationally. Regular UOC is actually kind of cool sometimes, but THIS?

Just stupid.

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The state just passed a law making it extremely easy for municipalities to limit, if not outright ban, the use of mobile billboards. Basically they are closing off an avenue of free speech and affordable advertisement. Of course people like us "caused" it. By living within the confines of existing law, it allowed the state and their lobbyists to identify the "loopholes" in their already engaged plan that was meant to limit our access to this. I don't see how trying to rebel with creativity is any worse than silently accepting the original nefarious plot as it accomplishes their goal, other than the timing of it. At least OC has inspired and educated many about the loss of their freedoms, whereas before, many had already thought they were already lost.

Definitely don't pray with your family before eating in public places. It's flaunting your right in the faces of people that object. Don't do it because that will just make them ban it. Praying in public is just a quest for attention and stirring the pot.
"If you have to ask permission then it isn't a right"
Rights are interchangeable and equal. Swap the word "gun" with "camera" and see if its reasonable. (permits, permission, permissible areas, etc)