Encountering mentally ill people, while out OC'ing

So I have been OC'ing everywhere I go. I was out running errands with the kidos. I swung buy to pick up my husband, and the kids and husband wanted to have Wendy's for dinner last night.

We go through the drive through, husband orders food, then they ask us to pull up and wait while they make our food.

(note: I only mention this for background)
Ok strike one, for that... so much for fast food when we have to wait for it to be made away from the drive through. But we do, don't say much about it, and just wait. It comes out to us via one of the employees who bring it out to us. No problem. We check it, and Husband says oh we are missing a burger, so I go in to retrieve said item.

I walk in and let them know that we were waiting for our food, that they had it brought out to us and was missing a burger. As I am saying that a woman who I can only imagine is mentally ill, comes in behind me yelling about me lying. "They all lie, she's lying about the burger, they all lie" I turn around and she comes up on my strong side standing so close to me that if she slightly leaned over she could have kissed me. Her clothing is dirty, and her hair looks like it has not been brushed. I try to ignore her and deal with the employee I am talking to, while side stepping away. She is still yelling over me about me lying, at this point I am getting annoyed. I ignore her, and get my burger. As I am walking too the door, she says "you are a liar, you are a liar" I turn around and tell the woman I would appreciate if you did not talk to me, I am not a liar, and try to proceed out. She looks at me and says "by the way I am not scared of your gun, I have one right here", and she pats her pocket in her pants. I ignore her. All the while she is yelling about liars. The entire time the employee is apologizing. I see my husband and kids coming up to the door, as I am about to exit. I accidentally left my phone in the car. So he wanted to tell me they forgot my son's chicken nuggets. I turn around, and tell the gentleman behind the counter my husband just told me that we are missing the nuggets on our order. She gets really close again, uncomfortably, so I move again... And says "oh I believe you now". He apologizes again, and he asks her to move away and she says no go over there. So he and I go to the other end of the counter, and he hands me the bag. He offers a frosty for my time, however, I just wanted to get out of there before the situation escalated, and said no thank you.

I had no idea what she was going to do next. I just wanted to removed myself from that situation.

Needless to say it was not comfortable, but I was glad I had protection on me.

(sorry about the rambling nature of this post, just a brain dump about this incident this morning)

GlockMom said:

....

As I am saying that a woman who I can only imagine is mentally ill, comes in behind me yelling ... I turn around and she comes up on my strong side standing so close to me that if she slightly leaned over she could have kissed me. ... I try to ignore her and deal with the employee I am talking to, while side stepping away. She is still yelling over me .... I ignore her, and get my burger.

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Deer in the headlights syndrome. Don't make a fuss/scene/embarass me syndrome.

As I am walking too the door, she says "you are a liar, you are a liar" I turn around and tell the woman I would appreciate if you did not talk to me, I am not a liar, and try to proceed out. She looks at me and says "by the way I am not scared of your gun, I have one right here", and she pats her pocket in her pants. I ignore her.

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Just to be nitpicking about a very badly written law, but that could easily be considered brandishing under 18.2-282 http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-282 . Case law seems unsettled. ( http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html In spite of the disagreement with Morris http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1032714.pdf noted in Alexander above, there are still those that will try to bring the charge for actions lesser than actually holding the firearm in your hand and actually pointing it at someone in a menacing manner. (Go ahead, ask me how I know.)

.... She gets really close again, uncomfortably, so I move again... ... and he [manager?] asks her to move away and she says no go over there. So he and I go to the other end of the counter, and he hands me the bag. He offers a frosty for my time, however, I just wanted to get out of there before the situation escalated, and said no thank you.

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The deadly Do Not Embarass Me/Yourself syndrome.

I had no idea what she was going to do next. I just wanted to removed myself from that situation.

Click to expand...

Deer in the headlights.

Needless to say it was not comfortable, but I was glad I had protection on me.

Click to expand...

Protection against what? Protection by what?
****

Glockmom -

I broke your post down into parts not for the purpose of raking you over the coals but to use the narrative as an opportunity to illustrate a number of points. I guess the best place to start is explaining how being assertive is not the same as being aggressive. Then there is the whole frozen inaction mess. And the part about not recognizing the existence of a threat, or denying the level of the threat you do recognize.

There is a cultural basis for the sexist-sounding statement that females are conditioned not to be assertive and to believe that assertiveness is the same as aggression. Using body posture, "command voice" and body positioning are ways of expressing assertiveness, not of being aggressive. I'll not insult you by saying what you "should have" done instead - I'm pretty sure you have already worked that out in your own head.

The most impoetant thing I want to address is the belief that the handgun is a magic talisman. Northing that you describe would IMHO give you justification or excuse to use deadly force. Therefore the gun on your hip is as useful as a boat anchor in the desert.

I thank you for being willing to expose yourself by posting your experience. I thank you for the opportunity for others to use your experience as a "teaching moment".

In closing I am, deliberately, going to try to scare the daylights out of you as well as make you more afraid than you may ever before have been - how do you expect your kids to be able to say "No!" to some creep if you can't do it?

stay safe.

I see people like this almost everyday. Most of them are on medication to control these outburst. For your first time I think you did rather well. But you had better get used to them. They are everywhere and are safe as long as they are one their medication.

Rule #1 self preservation, remove your self from the danger and call for/get help and remember they are NUTS!

skidmark said:

Deer in the headlights syndrome. Don't make a fuss/scene/embarass me syndrome.



Just to be nitpicking about a very badly written law, but that could easily be considered brandishing under 18.2-282 http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-282 . Case law seems unsettled. ( http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html In spite of the disagreement with Morris http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvwp/1032714.pdf noted in Alexander above, there are still those that will try to bring the charge for actions lesser than actually holding the firearm in your hand and actually pointing it at someone in a menacing manner. (Go ahead, ask me how I know.)



The deadly Do Not Embarass Me/Yourself syndrome.



Deer in the headlights.



Protection against what? Protection by what?
****

Glockmom -

I broke your post down into parts not for the purpose of raking you over the coals but to use the narrative as an opportunity to illustrate a number of points. I guess the best place to start is explaining how being assertive is not the same as being aggressive. Then there is the whole frozen inaction mess. And the part about not recognizing the existence of a threat, or denying the level of the threat you do recognize.

There is a cultural basis for the sexist-sounding statement that females are conditioned not to be assertive and to believe that assertiveness is the same as aggression. Using body posture, "command voice" and body positioning are ways of expressing assertiveness, not of being aggressive. I'll not insult you by saying what you "should have" done instead - I'm pretty sure you have already worked that out in your own head.

The most impoetant thing I want to address is the belief that the handgun is a magic talisman. Northing that you describe would IMHO give you justification or excuse to use deadly force. Therefore the gun on your hip is as useful as a boat anchor in the desert.

I thank you for being willing to expose yourself by posting your experience. I thank you for the opportunity for others to use your experience as a "teaching moment".

In closing I am, deliberately, going to try to scare the daylights out of you as well as make you more afraid than you may ever before have been - how do you expect your kids to be able to say "No!" to some creep if you can't do it?

stay safe.

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Skidmark I respectfully disagree with your most of your assessment.

I understand you wanted to make a point with my post. That is fine I am happy to help teach. Just because I chose not to argue with a clearly not mentally there person, does not mean I was backing down. I assessed the situation I moved to the side one step as I am certain if I pushed her away from me there would have been other problems. Even if I said get the hell away from me, there could have been an escalation of events. At that point she was only yelling and causing a ruckus. It cost me nothing to step one step aside and continue my business. I assure you I was not a deer in a headlight.

I am 1/2 Japanese and the way I was raised being a Japanese woman would to be remove yourself from a bad situation no confrontation no matter what it cost me. I normally would have just left and not gotten the items owed from my transaction with the establishment because he/she/it was embarrassing me. Regardless of what you may think of me, I stood my ground conducted my business and let her do as she wished so long as she was not harming my person or anyone else around me.

I assure you, I was not a deer in a headlights, I may not have conveyed everything adequately in writing.

I was unsure if what she was doing was brandishing, but I let it go, as so long as she does not pull it on me it is none of my business.

Now to the paragraph that starts with "The most impoetant thing I want to address is the belief that the handgun is a magic talisman." I think you misconstrued what I wrote. I in no way was saying that the situation was any where near volatile enough to need my gun. However, I was saying that should the situation have escalated, I felt that I was more prepared for such a thing. Not that was 100% prepared, but I had a fighting chance if you will. As for the "magic talisman" comment, I in no way think that the gun is a "magic talisman" that will protect me from all evil, and situations. In fact I hope I will never have to use it to protect myself or family in that way. I would only draw if my life or my family/friends lives were in danger. I was however saying, I appreciate that it does act as a deterrent and that I have it should a life threatening situation happen.

GlockMom

GlockMom said:

--snip--

I assure you, I was not a dear in a headlights, I may not have conveyed everything adequately in writing.

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I think you were a "dear" and that you did fine. The written word can be very limiting and can contribute to making posting on a forum imprecise as to the actual events.

Skidmark is a very detail oriented person, particularly regarding the law and self-defense. His intent is generally noble, though his voice can be a little gruff.

Glockmom - great story.

Can you go through the various points and possibly think of how you could have handled it better?

I can't fault you at any point really because it played out OK. But consider:

1. At the first sign of the mentally ill woman, go back to the car and either send in your husband, (just to have a change of personage, not to send in a 'man', mind you). OR
2. Go back out to the car and go back around to the drive in window and finish your transaction via the window, enclosed in your car OR
3. Go back to the car and get your cell phone and call the establishment and tell them to bring them out to the car.

What you needed to get was 'space' and 'time' (and a change of personage). You get space, time and protection from the car by immediately leaving. Your situational awareness (SA) was telling you this was NOT good and you needed to leave (listen to your fear). But your culture-ation was telling you to go against your type (Asian woman normally prone to leave). Sometimes we have to stop and say 'it's better to get time and space and leave the situation', which was rapidly becoming highly chaotic. If the woman had reached INTO her pocket (or started moving her hand there) after telling her she had a gun, you'd have had to draw and shoot her. If you went to the car and called 911 and said 'I was at the counter and a woman came in and everyone heard her say she had a gun in her pocket and patted her pocket', then 911 would have come and carted her off, again, giving you space and time.

I'm just musing here, but my gist is:
Seek space and time and cover the moment there is a threat and do not give into the urge to ignore your fear (just because it's minor, seems 'goofy', seems against type). Treat all such incidents when carrying openly as 'IMPORTANT', because you are at risk for someone to goad you into using your firearm (when this happens with crazy people who confront you).

Just getting space (going back to the car and regrouping) might have solved it. Just getting time (going to the car and driving back around) might have solved it. Just getting cover (going back to the car and regrouping) might have solved it.

But you stayed in there, talked to her, had to move, she got aggro, you left your cell, you got all involved and chaos spiked. All bad things, potentially. I'd say you narrowly averted a catastrophe.

So again - when in danger, seek space, time and cover. HTH, FWIW.

I think your first mistake was buying food from a Wendy's, though it could have been worse, you could have been in a McDonald's. Just teasing!

sawah said:

What you needed to get was 'space' and 'time'

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agreed.

GlockMom said:

So I have been OC'ing everywhere I go. I was out running errands with the kidos. I swung buy to pick up my husband, and the kids and husband wanted to have Wendy's for dinner last night.

We go through the drive through, husband orders food, then they ask us to pull up and wait while they make our food.

(note: I only mention this for background)
Ok strike one, for that... so much for fast food when we have to wait for it to be made away from the drive through. But we do, don't say much about it, and just wait. It comes out to us via one of the employees who bring it out to us. No problem. We check it, and Husband says oh we are missing a burger, so I go in to retrieve said item.

I walk in and let them know that we were waiting for our food, that they had it brought out to us and was missing a burger. As I am saying that a woman who I can only imagine is mentally ill, comes in behind me yelling about me lying. "They all lie, she's lying about the burger, they all lie" I turn around and she comes up on my strong side standing so close to me that if she slightly leaned over she could have kissed me. Her clothing is dirty, and her hair looks like it has not been brushed. I try to ignore her and deal with the employee I am talking to, while side stepping away. She is still yelling over me about me lying, at this point I am getting annoyed. I ignore her, and get my burger. As I am walking too the door, she says "you are a liar, you are a liar" I turn around and tell the woman I would appreciate if you did not talk to me, I am not a liar, and try to proceed out. She looks at me and says "by the way I am not scared of your gun, I have one right here", and she pats her pocket in her pants. I ignore her. All the while she is yelling about liars. The entire time the employee is apologizing. I see my husband and kids coming up to the door, as I am about to exit. I accidentally left my phone in the car. So he wanted to tell me they forgot my son's chicken nuggets. I turn around, and tell the gentleman behind the counter my husband just told me that we are missing the nuggets on our order. She gets really close again, uncomfortably, so I move again... And says "oh I believe you now". He apologizes again, and he asks her to move away and she says no go over there. So he and I go to the other end of the counter, and he hands me the bag. He offers a frosty for my time, however, I just wanted to get out of there before the situation escalated, and said no thank you.

I had no idea what she was going to do next. I just wanted to removed myself from that situation.

Needless to say it was not comfortable, but I was glad I had protection on me.

(sorry about the rambling nature of this post, just a brain dump about this incident this morning)

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IMO, sounds like she was just picking on you and wanting to start a fight. Maybe she didn't see your gun at first. She clearly made it to point that she saw your gun and wasn't scared of it. As she said she had one on her. Maybe she was just trying to fight with someone, sence you had a gun it defused her from it. Maybe she was going to smash you up or something but you had a gun and it stopped her.

What are your all thoughts on carrying handcuffs? someone like this could go batcrazy and needs to be tied up until the police come.

Grapeshot said:

I think you were a "dear" and that you did fine. The written word can be very limiting and can contribute to making posting on a forum imprecise as to the actual events.

Skidmark is a very detail oriented person, particularly regarding the law and self-defense. His intent is generally noble, though his voice can be a little gruff.

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Lol, yeah sorry typo, also typo in title, Encounter not Incounter... I understand Skidmark meant no ill will. I just wanted to clarify.

<shrug> Welcome to Northern Virginia. There are a ton of people up there like that. LOL!

I recently stopped at the US Marine Corps/Iwo Jima Memorial in Arlington and encountered much the same... a guy talking loudly to himself at first, then towards my direction when he saw me (I wasn't carrying at the time... was headed into DC for work). I ignored him and went about my way... much as you did in your situation. It worked. No issues.

sawah said:

Glockmom - great story.

Can you go through the various points and possibly think of how you could have handled it better?

I can't fault you at any point really because it played out OK. But consider:

1. At the first sign of the mentally ill woman, go back to the car and either send in your husband, (just to have a change of personage, not to send in a 'man', mind you). OR
2. Go back out to the car and go back around to the drive in window and finish your transaction via the window, enclosed in your car OR
3. Go back to the car and get your cell phone and call the establishment and tell them to bring them out to the car.

What you needed to get was 'space' and 'time' (and a change of personage). You get space, time and protection from the car by immediately leaving. Your situational awareness (SA) was telling you this was NOT good and you needed to leave (listen to your fear). But your culture-ation was telling you to go against your type (Asian woman normally prone to leave). Sometimes we have to stop and say 'it's better to get time and space and leave the situation', which was rapidly becoming highly chaotic. If the woman had reached INTO her pocket (or started moving her hand there) after telling her she had a gun, you'd have had to draw and shoot her. If you went to the car and called 911 and said 'I was at the counter and a woman came in and everyone heard her say she had a gun in her pocket and patted her pocket', then 911 would have come and carted her off, again, giving you space and time.

I'm just musing here, but my gist is:
Seek space and time and cover the moment there is a threat and do not give into the urge to ignore your fear (just because it's minor, seems 'goofy', seems against type). Treat all such incidents when carrying openly as 'IMPORTANT', because you are at risk for someone to goad you into using your firearm (when this happens with crazy people who confront you).

Just getting space (going back to the car and regrouping) might have solved it. Just getting time (going to the car and driving back around) might have solved it. Just getting cover (going back to the car and regrouping) might have solved it.

But you stayed in there, talked to her, had to move, she got aggro, you left your cell, you got all involved and chaos spiked. All bad things, potentially. I'd say you narrowly averted a catastrophe.

So again - when in danger, seek space, time and cover. HTH, FWIW.

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Thanks Sawah, I agree yeah I could have just walked out of the store, maybe even should have. I usually avoid those kinds of risk situations. I to am glad it did not go any further. When I am with my kids I don't even risk discourse or provocation. I leave and put space, time and cover between us all. This time I tried to trust my instincts, about risk assessment and concluded that there was little to no threat to me at the time.

I, too, thought you did fine (luckily I can disagree with skidmark and still count him a friend).

You didn't need to stand up to this woman, as she was not anything but a verbal threat. When she patted her pocket and indicated she, too, had a gun, you knew as an open carrier you had the advantage -- you could draw more quickly than she IF you needed to. You didn't.

MOST mentally ill individuals are not dangerous. Some are smelly, belligerent, obnoxious, dirty, disrespectful, or otherwise distasteful, as are many who are not diagnosed as mentally ill.

Perhaps you needed space and time; perhaps you didn't.

It's times like these I'm thankful for my unarmed self-defense training and my military command voice <grin> -- both of which are likely of more use than a firearm.

GlockMom said:

Lol, yeah sorry typo, also typo in title, Encounter not Incounter... I understand Skidmark meant no ill will. I just wanted to clarify.

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Went to fix that after you pointed it out, but someone beat me to it....and left no tracks......hummm.

ocholsteroc said:

IMO, sounds like she was just picking on you and wanting to start a fight. Maybe she didn't see your gun at first. She clearly made it to point that she saw your gun and wasn't scared of it. As she said she had one on her. Maybe she was just trying to fight with someone, sence you had a gun it defused her from it. Maybe she was going to smash you up or something but you had a gun and it stopped her.

What are your all thoughts on carrying handcuffs? someone like this could go batcrazy and needs to be tied up until the police come.

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She might have been trying to start a fight. I find though that people usually have a hard time fighting with other people if the other person does not engage in the fight. I ignored her and her comments, comments don't harm me and mine permanently so I try to ignore them.

I have thought about it. However, I wanna read up more on VA laws in regard to detaining someone who meant to do me harm. If the laws permit, I don't see an reason not to carry them. I could be wrong. *shrugs*

Grapeshot said:

Went to fix that after you pointed it out, but someone beat me to it....and left no tracks......hummm.

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Grapeshot

Is there any way to change it on our end. I tried to edit post, but it did not allow me to edit the title. Sorry if it is a stupid question. Still learning this forum application.

GlockMom said:

Grapeshot

Is there any way to change it on our end. I tried to edit post, but it did not allow me to edit the title. Sorry if it is a stupid question. Still learning this forum application.

Click to expand...

No - thread titles are not part of the normal edit function.

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

This is how I see this situation...

First off, thank you for posting it... it really is a great tool!

Second... everyone has a different demeanor about how they handle things. The important thing here is that you handled it your way....how you were most comfortable with...and walked away no harm, no foul.

Third (everything comes in threes, right? )... the lady could have been bluffing... or baiting you...trying to get you to overreact in order to get some sort of settlement. Us "GUN NUTS" have this image that looms over us, thanks to the common media, that we are a bunch of idiotic rednecks who are trigger happy wackos. I have heard of much crazier things people have done to try to get a quick settlement from a lawsuit. All you had to do was take an assertive step towards her, she falls down and claims neck injury on your fault.


In closing....there are many different ways to look at this situation. Different people have different opinions on how to handle a situation. You handled yours how you felt best and it worked out just fine. Pat yourself on the back and chalk it up as a victory. Good job on remaining calm and in control.

ocholsteroc said:

What are your all thoughts on carrying handcuffs? someone like this could go batcrazy and needs to be tied up until the police come.

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I think carrying cuffs is a bad idea. I wont do it. I dont want to get close to this kind of threat if I do not have to.

If someone is going batcrazy... they might have other medical issues or conditions that I do not want to be contaminated with. You never know when someone is going to pull out a sharpened screwdriver and shank you while you are attempting a citizen's arrest.

ocholsteroc said:

What are your all thoughts on carrying handcuffs?
someone like this could go batcrazy and needs to be tied up until the police come.

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I don't want to get that close to someone of whose intentions I'm not sure. That's part of why I avoid events with crowds. (A crowd of other gun folks, no problem.)

Also, not sure of the technicalities of a citizens' arrest, false arrest, etc.

Tess said:

MOST mentally ill individuals are not dangerous.

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Most people with a brain disease look & (generally) act very much like the rest of the population, or at least within the acceptable range.

I'd be more worried about the everyday thugs & trainee psychopaths of the inner city. I know they're dangerous.