• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

My experience at the N/E Metro sub station

AmbushBug

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
62
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Don't, the only records showing what citizen has what firearm by S/N are at the local guy down the street who functions as the community's FFL ~ period!


addendum: FFL's A/D books & 4473s are not alpha sequenced but by date received or sold and ATF does not allow FFLs to use electonic A/D databases to do a quickie search by say last name or S/N which going to the FFL directly, depending on their sales volume would be a Herculean task.

I... don't know of any rules forbidding FFLs from maintaining a database parallel to their bound books? In fact, it looks like FFLs can use databases to replace bound books - unless this ruling got superseded: https://www.atf.gov/file/11226/download
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
I... don't know of any rules forbidding FFLs from maintaining a database parallel to their bound books? In fact, it looks like FFLs can use databases to replace bound books - unless this ruling got superseded: https://www.atf.gov/file/11226/download

no, you are correct ambush, ATF ruling 2013-5, as added to the ATF's 2014 reference book, is a viable alternative as long as the FFL explicitly follows the 11 criteria as outlined.

i believe criteria number 2 is the bugger to meet in electronic based A/D programs~ revision control: ensuring that every change to the individual record is duplicated and changes documented, to include what was changed, who made the change and why the change was made, and then ensuring those changes are maintained with the database for posterity.

so i thank you for clarifying that point...

ipse
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
Two retail purchase, the last two and the only way I purchase, were conducted via e-forms. Both 4473 and BC. I have no doubt that Uncle Sam has all the info they need to come and "inspect" these two firearms if they choose to do so.

Anyone who remains convinced that gun registration does not occur as a result of a retail purchase...

Ammo purchases are only via cash to minimize exposure to the G-men.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,936
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Two retail purchase, the last two and the only way I purchase, were conducted via e-forms. Both 4473 and BC. I have no doubt that Uncle Sam has all the info they need to come and "inspect" these two firearms if they choose to do so.

Anyone who remains convinced that gun registration does not occur as a result of a retail purchase...

Ammo purchases are only via cash to minimize exposure to the G-men.
I disagree, technically.

Blacks law dictionary 4th edition.
REGISTRATION. Recording; inserting in an official register; enrollment, as registration of voters; the act of making a list, catalogue, schedule, or register, particularly of an official character, or of making entries therein.
An FFL purchase on a 4473 is not a registration. All it is, is a chain of custody of a serial # from the manufacturer to the FFL. As I stated above, when the firearm transfers from the FFL, commerce system, to the private sector there is no requirement for record keeping; chain of custody ends. A person that acquired a firearm privately can reenter that firearm into the system if that person sells/transfers the firearm to an FFL. But, the chain of custody has been broken and there is no assurance that the firearm will ever be able to be traced. However, if reported stolen after the chain of custody was broken, but because the stolen firearm was purchased from a FFL it would start a new chain of custody.

So, technically there is no registration.
 
Last edited:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
I disagree, technically.
...
So, technically there is no registration.
Any (every?) firearm that is retained by the retail purchaser, where the transfer process (4473/BC) is completed via e-form, the gun is now in the system and recorded. Unless of course you have conclusive evidence that the e-4473 is not visible to the government.

There is a retail purchase, and there is a private purchase. I agree with your private sale scenario, I have my doubts about your retail sale scenario.

There are a few folks around here, small Mom/Pop shops, who call (land-line even) in the BC and use paper 4473's only, in a binder, like the good ole days.
 
Top