• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Was thinking about getting RCW 9.41.270 changed. Who's in?

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Perhaps all that's needed is some definitions

Rather than change the Statute I think that all we need is some clear definitions added as to what actually 'warrants' alarm. A definition that states the mere carry of a firearm in a non-threatening manner does not do so. For the sake of clarity for police officers trying to make an issue of open carry perhaps some manners of carry will need to be addressed. If not, then the interpretation will still be up to the officer's creative mind. If he doesn't like "Mexican Carry" then guess what? Ditto for any "tactical holsters". Sometimes it's necessary to limit the options of the officers and prosecutors.

IMHO the big issue with 9.41.270 is its lack of definitions, not its intent or wording.
 

joejoejoe

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
319
Location
Vancouver, WA
Well, there really isn't much point to being able to carry something you can never legally use in any way whatsoever.

"(3) It shall be unlawful for any person to exhibit, display, or draw any dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, with intent or apparent intent to intimidate or harm another."

Best I can come up with off the top of my head.

Also, preemption should be changed to include this law. The law in Seattle regarding knives is draconian.

I want to avoid words like "intent" or "intimidate" or any other wording that is up to the "victim's" interpretation. Is there a way we can add these weapons into the "use of deadly force" or "aiming and drawing a firearm" code that also states you cannot display any of these weapons unless your life, your property or someone else's life is at risk? That would be preferable, but again I am working on the wording.
 

joejoejoe

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
319
Location
Vancouver, WA
AFAIK, the main guy behind changing the silencer law is starting in on the SBR prohibition. He hangs out on another forum. He seems to have a methodical approach / plan to gain back a few of our freedoms one inch at a time.

If you can get me his name or somehow a contact method for me, that would help me get one step closer. I could work with him on this.
 

joejoejoe

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
319
Location
Vancouver, WA
Rather than change the Statute I think that all we need is some clear definitions added as to what actually 'warrants' alarm. A definition that states the mere carry of a firearm in a non-threatening manner does not do so. For the sake of clarity for police officers trying to make an issue of open carry perhaps some manners of carry will need to be addressed. If not, then the interpretation will still be up to the officer's creative mind. If he doesn't like "Mexican Carry" then guess what? Ditto for any "tactical holsters". Sometimes it's necessary to limit the options of the officers and prosecutors.

IMHO the big issue with 9.41.270 is its lack of definitions, not its intent or wording.

Again, I want to make it clear that NO .270 is better than a defined law. Questions they ask in court are specifically "were you ALARMED?" This is unnecessary in my opinion. Like you said "then the interpretation will still be up to the officer's creative mind." I want to fight to see this law repealed so there is no ifs, ands, or buts.
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Again, I want to make it clear that NO .270 is better than a defined law. Questions they ask in court are specifically "were you ALARMED?" This is unnecessary in my opinion. Like you said "then the interpretation will still be up to the officer's creative mind." I want to fight to see this law repealed so there is no ifs, ands, or buts.

It's my belief that this won't be repealed, period. Definitions of what is considered and warrants alarm will eliminate any weight this question has in court. They may say that they were alarmed, even terrified, but if the firearm was carried in a manner excluded from those that legitimately warrant alarm then "Tough Stuff".

Discuss this with a few Legislators and I think you'll find that they aren't interested in repealing this. Ditto for prosecutors who do carry some political weight. If you can't win by eliminating the law, then fence in those that want to abuse it.
 

tombrewster421

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
1,326
Location
Roy, WA
I've seen small .22 revolvers made to mount on a belt buckle and I have a 2mm revolver that mounts to a tie pin (I think thats what they are called). I doubt either of those would be considered holstered, but they are far from being considered dangerously carried like home depot genius.

It was Lowes actually.:)
 

heresolong

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
1,318
Location
Blaine, WA, ,
" . . . then the current body of case law (State vs. Casad, State v. Spencer) generally makes such carry lawful."

You can refer to Spencer but Casad is an unpublished decision. As such it has no precedential value, which is too bad because the language in it is very favorable to the cause.

True but irrelevant. Precedential value has no bearing except in court cases. It can be cited with no issues at all when discussing the pros and cons of particular actions or legislation. The only time you can't bring up Casad is when you are standing in front of the court defending yourself.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
True but irrelevant. Precedential value has no bearing except in court cases. It can be cited with no issues at all when discussing the pros and cons of particular actions or legislation. The only time you can't bring up Casad is when you are standing in front of the court defending yourself.

Well worded, because I like to use Casad as an example of how a court should rule.
 

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
- My thoughts on this ...

Hmmmm...
Interesting concept. I am a firm believer in less laws, but here is my two cents.
Red indicates the changes from current code. Blue is my two cents.
New RCW 9.41.050:

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.

(5) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol on his or her person openly or concealed unless it is properly holstered or fixed by device on his or her person.

(6) No person shall be held for question, nor passage infringed for possession of a legally carried firearm unless reasonable and articulable suspicion that a crime has been, or is about to be committed was reached prior to contact.

(x) Subsection (4) shall not apply to any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty. * Don’t need this because you already have .260

:uhoh: I do not think we need to relocate or imitate .270 wording in any way shape or form, so a soft copy to .250 is not needed. Also, .250 is a direct address to switchblades and other odd weapons such as brass knuckles, so adding firearms into the mix is an odd fit indeed.

:dude: I think the exacting point of warranting alarm, or generally being dangerous with ones weapon is addressed rather well in .230. I think a minor addition to .230 would suffice in order to protect a citizen who had to use, draw or “brandish” their firearm in an effort to protect themselves, fend off, or deter a criminal.



RCW 9.41.230
Aiming or discharging firearms, dangerous weapons.

(1) For conduct not amounting to a violation of chapter 9A.36 RCW, any person who:

(a) Aims any firearm, whether loaded or not, at or toward any human being;

(b) Willfully discharges any firearm, air gun, or other weapon, or throws any deadly missile in a public place, or in any place where any person might be endangered thereby. A public place shall not include any location at which firearms are authorized to be lawfully discharged; or

(c) Except as provided in RCW 9.41.185, sets a so-called trap, spring pistol, rifle, or other dangerous weapon, although no injury results, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

(2) If an injury results from a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person violating subsection (1) of this section shall be subject to the applicable provisions of chapters 9A.32 and 9A.36 RCW.

(3) This section shall not apply to any person who lawfully engages in an act of defense to one’s self or others, or as a deterrent to felony activity, or where the public’s best interest would be served by doing so.

- The end goal should be to secure as much freedom for the good citizen, and loosen the noose of vague legal definitions that lead to arrests for people simply trying to protect their lives. Let .270 die if we can.
Bat
 
Last edited:

maclean

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
378
Location
, ,
The term "articulable" isn't used in RCW anywhere in 9.41.

My best recollection is the only place you'll find it is in Title 77.

If you add it, make sure you place a definitions addition at the correct location in the title heading.

The usual RCW term is "reasonable suspicion" and you can find that peppered all over the place.

I'm mildly concerned with "passage infringed" because "passage" also applies to common carriers. A Taxi for example, who should have the right to refuse an armed man if they so choose as a private business.

Is there a better wording for that?
 
Last edited:

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
.. Yes good idea ..

Yes, if definitions etc. needed to be added then to do so would be prudent. i personally would want articulable to be in there, as i believe it is time we start expecting public servants to be held more accountable for their actions. We as good citizens should be being held in a higher regard by those that are meant to safeguard our environment. The LEO community exists for OUR benefit, not for their own volitions. We must start bridging that gap back together... and thus, articulable comes into play when LEO are by definition forced to explain and and have solid grounds to stand on regarding their actions, and their mistakes. I believe LEO has way to many immunities where mistakes are concerned. In most profession people are fired or arrested for some of the "mistakes" LEO has made. We need to level the grounds so LEO and Citizen can see eye to eye again, and so ramifications are on a more level playing field. - We are all human, it's time we hold everyone to a similar standard.

Possibly better wording for infringed and or passage - or - preferably, add that private establishments, taxi operators etc still retain rights of refusal. I think there is a big difference between being stopped and scoped by a cop for a legal activity vs. being told "We don't serve your kind" by a store owner. Private vendors, under current law, still have their rights to refuse. - I just like strong wording that protects good citizens. :)
 
Last edited:

maclean

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
378
Location
, ,
Yes, if definitions etc. needed to be added then to do so would be prudent. i personally would want articulable to be in there, as i believe it is time we start expecting public servants to be held more accountable for their actions. We as good citizens should be being held in a higher regard by those that are meant to safeguard our environment. The LEO community exists for OUR benefit, not for their own volitions. We must start bridging that gap back together... and thus, articulable comes into play when LEO are by definition forced to explain and and have solid grounds to stand on regarding their actions, and their mistakes. I believe LEO has way to many immunities where mistakes are concerned. In most profession people are fired or arrested for some of the "mistakes" LEO has made. We need to level the grounds so LEO and Citizen can see eye to eye again, and so ramifications are on a more level playing field. - We are all human, it's time we hold everyone to a similar standard.

Possibly better wording for infringed and or passage - or - preferably, add that private establishments, taxi operators etc still retain rights of refusal. I think there is a big difference between being stopped and scoped by a cop for a legal activity vs. being told "We don't serve your kind" by a store owner. Private vendors, under current law, still have their rights to refuse. - I just like strong wording that protects good citizens. :)

No argument that .270 needs work, been saying that for years.

The term "reasonable suspicion" in Washington means the same as the "RAS" commonly used here. It's taught that way to every LEO in the academy, too. I don't care if you change it, but know that it will need work at the basic training level too.

I'll gladly assist with any effort to change .270, but it needs to be done right and in a way that we can sell to a legiscritter. If holes are left in the proposal, it won't fly.
 

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
Very true - i am in all honesty a flexible person. I have no problem using traditional language if the spirit of the law is being upheld in court, and being trained properly at the ground level. - Most people would rather not be hassled at the ground level just to have the courts "sort it out later" at their expense. It's all good when you (general term, not aimed) can screw someone at no expense just to let the courts leach some cash from the poor sap as it is sorted it out, teach em a good ol lesson. - Now.. if courts held the costs till the end, and the LEO as an individual had to pay the fines and costs that the courts charge if the sorting finds in favor of the citizen, well, i bet things would be different.... thus, i like wording that prevents a good "sorting" in the first place... i never liked how that works, most of us cant afford it, and no matter how it ends, the LEO responsible for "sorting" the citizen can sit back and laugh without any repercussions. - Hold "people" more accountable across an even playing field, things become very different, respect and considerations would be used instead of a good ol court "sorting".

:dude: I am not anti cop BTW, contrary, i am rather pro-LEO - i work with many good LEO, i greatly appreciate their service and sacrifice, but i seen some really bad ones too, and know how they operate. I seen them use legal aspects to simply screw someone for the sake of it, yet they sit back and enjoy impunities when they really should be held accountable, both finacially and legall. - checks and balances need to be brought back into place in order to re-connect LEO with the common Citizen. - Repair the rift if we are to salvage our country.
 

maclean

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
378
Location
, ,
Very true - i am in all honesty a flexible person. I have no problem using traditional language if the spirit of the law is being upheld in court, and being trained properly at the ground level. - Most people would rather not be hassled at the ground level just to have the courts "sort it out later" at their expense. It's all good when you (general term, not aimed) can screw someone at no expense just to let the courts leach some cash from the poor sap as it is sorted it out, teach em a good ol lesson. - Now.. if courts held the costs till the end, and the LEO as an individual had to pay the fines and costs that the courts charge if the sorting finds in favor of the citizen, well, i bet things would be different.... thus, i like wording that prevents a good "sorting" in the first place... i never liked how that works, most of us cant afford it, and no matter how it ends, the LEO responsible for "sorting" the citizen can sit back and laugh without any repercussions. - Hold "people" more accountable across an even playing field, things become very different, respect and considerations would be used instead of a good ol court "sorting".

:dude: I am not anti cop BTW, contrary, i am rather pro-LEO - i work with many good LEO, i greatly appreciate their service and sacrifice, but i seen some really bad ones too, and know how they operate. I seen them use legal aspects to simply screw someone for the sake of it, yet they sit back and enjoy impunities when they really should be held accountable, both finacially and legall. - checks and balances need to be brought back into place in order to re-connect LEO with the common Citizen. - Repair the rift if we are to salvage our country.

Repairing .270 would solve at least one small issue. I'm all for it, have been forever.
 

amzbrady

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
3,521
Location
Marysville, Washington, USA
It should not be illegal to draw, to be ready to defend. You see police do it all the time, they draw and approach, whether it be a car, a house, a shed, and so on. If three people are approaching you making threats of violence, you should be able to draw and be ready in case they try to make good on those threats. I would think that alone could cause a change of heart in many who started out with the intent to do bodily harm.
 

Batousaii

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
1,226
Location
Kitsap Co., Washington, USA
It should not be illegal to draw, to be ready to defend. You see police do it all the time, they draw and approach, whether it be a car, a house, a shed, and so on. If three people are approaching you making threats of violence, you should be able to draw and be ready in case they try to make good on those threats. I would think that alone could cause a change of heart in many who started out with the intent to do bodily harm.
+1 Agree
I have always felt that we should have the same immunities and impunities as cops (except where needed for under cover maybe).
- I believe laws that revolve around the discharge of a weapon are fine, as a public safety issue, but there may be times when it is necessary to draw or show a weapon in an effort to fend off an attack, in hopes of not having to discharge it at a graver moment.
 

jt59

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
1,005
Location
Central South Sound
Start with some of these from MT

I like this language...clear, direct and to the point..and it passed and was signed into law by the MT Gov. (2009)

AN ACT PRESERVING AND CLARIFYING LAWS RELATING TO THE RIGHT OF SELF-DEFENSE AND THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS; AMENDING SECTIONS 45-3-103, 45-8-321, AND 46-6-502, MCA; AND PROVIDING AN IMMEDIATE EFFECTIVE DATE.



WHEREAS, the Legislature declares that:

(1) the right of Montanans to defend their lives and liberties, as provided in Article II, section 3, of the Montana Constitution, and their right to keep or bear arms in defense of their homes, persons, and property, as provided in Article II, section 12, of the Montana Constitution, are fundamental and may not be called into question;

(2) the use of firearms for self-defense is recognized within the right reserved to the individual people of Montana in Article II, section 12, of the Montana Constitution;

(3) self-defense is a natural right under section 1-2-104, MCA, and is included in sections 49-1-101 and 49-1-103, MCA;

(4) the lawful use of firearms for self-defense is not a crime or an offense against the people of the state;

(5) in a criminal case in which self-defense is asserted, the burden of proof is as provided in [section 10];

(6) in self-defense, the use of justifiable force discourages violent crime and prevents victimization; and

(7) the purpose of [sections 1 through 3] is to clarify and secure the ability of the people to protect themselves.



BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MONTANA:



Section 1.No duty to summon help or flee. Except as provided in 45-3-105, a person who is lawfully in a place or location and who is threatened with bodily injury or loss of life has no duty to retreat from a threat or summon law enforcement assistance prior to using force. The provisions of this section apply to a person offering evidence of justifiable use of force under 45-3-102, 45-3-103, or 45-3-104.



Section 2.Openly carrying weapon -- display -- exemption. (1) Any person who is not otherwise prohibited from doing so by federal or state law may openly carry a weapon and may communicate to another person the fact that the person has a weapon.

(2) If a person reasonably believes that the person or another person is threatened with bodily harm, the person may warn or threaten the use of force, including deadly force, against the aggressor, including drawing or presenting a weapon.

(3) This section does not limit the authority of the board of regents or other postsecondary institutions to regulate the carrying of weapons, as defined in 45-8-361(5)(b), on their campuses.



Section 3.Investigation of alleged offense involving claim of justifiable use of force. When an investigation is conducted by a peace officer of an incident that appears to have or is alleged to have involved justifiable use of force, the investigation must be conducted so as to disclose all evidence, including testimony concerning the alleged offense and that might support the apparent or alleged justifiable use of force.



Prepared by Montana Legislative Services
(406) 444-3064

I would note the choice of "bodily harm" language in the section above....not "great" bodily harm, or any of the additional adjectives used currently in WA, that make you have to try and figure out the difference in a parking lot where a guy is 7 yards away and charging you with fists up and clenched, in a rage, can't talk, eyes bugging out, red faced, outweighs you by 25 lbs and younger than you by 25 years, is more of a threat of great bodily harm or just a good beat down, than some guy, ranting in a bus stop with a knife, 7 yards away is a lethal threat....

scenario one is assualt (only if he hits or grabs you) but not charged, scenario two gets you shot by Tacoma PD
 
Last edited:
Top