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CC NRA-ILA workshop at cabela's!
- Thread starter Glockface
- Start date
Peacekeeper
Regular Member
Sorry, but I have to lean toward agreeing with Paul and littlewolf on this one. My DD214 states #23 - type of separation - discharge. And #24 - character of service - Honorable. I served less than 3 years - #28 - reason for separation - hardship. My father died and left me two small businesses.
Also under #14 - military education it states - Security Specialist course. It does not break down what was all included in the course. The "or" in the law has some meaning.
Also under #14 - military education it states - Security Specialist course. It does not break down what was all included in the course. The "or" in the law has some meaning.
BROKENSPROKET
Regular Member
First thing, No, I am not losing the context. You do not get the context. You were flaming people before you had any idea what a DD214 was.
Second thing, do not phukin accuse me of keeping out key words. They are all there, every single one of them, twice. The first time in whole, then I broke it down into sections to spoon feed it to ya. And you still did not get it.
Don’t simplify it, Paul. You cannot simplify something that you cannot comprehend. Again, you were flaming people before you had any idea what a DD214 was. You flamed CCW214 when he was speaking the damn truth. When you read it again, consider this.
A person that has been dishonorably discharged is a prohibited person and cannot even own a firearm.
Documentation of the required training, if they recieved it, is on the DD214 they received when they were discharged.
A member who has not be discharged can use a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification.
A DD214 must have "Documentation of completion of small arms training" AND show an Honarable Discharge or General Discharge (under honorable conditions) to be able to use it to get a WI-CWL. A DD214 with a discharge less than that won't get you a WI-CWL.
I won’t be accused of being a troll who sits behind a keyboard, so I will see you at the picnic.
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paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
If you would of said that, I would of said nothing or agreed with you. My contention still stands. Since it says 'or', I can have a proof of honorable or general discharge under honorable conditions OR proof of small arms training. If the DD214 has both, great!!!
OP said
You said
That is my only issue.
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paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
Please provide a citation. The citation you and I used does not have the word AND, it has OR,
See you there! We can argue over a hotdog! Ketchup or no ketchup? :lol:
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
As long as you have proof of an honorable discharge it will work.
waapl01
Regular Member
dd-214 ccw/chp
Thats how it works here in virginia. i got initial firearms training. don't believe it was listed on my dd-214, standard ops. maybe someone at the issuing office does'nt know that or its wi policy, i don't know.
Thats how it works here in virginia. i got initial firearms training. don't believe it was listed on my dd-214, standard ops. maybe someone at the issuing office does'nt know that or its wi policy, i don't know.
Firearms!!!
Date of enactment: July 8, 2011
2011 Senate Bill 93 Date of publication*: July 22,
SECTION 38. 175.60 of the statutes is created to read:
175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this section
(4) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS. (a) The proof of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:
2. Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course or program under subd.
14. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification
Date of enactment: July 8, 2011
2011 Senate Bill 93 Date of publication*: July 22,
SECTION 38. 175.60 of the statutes is created to read:
175.60 License to carry a concealed weapon. (1) DEFINITIONS. In this section
(4) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS. (a) The proof of training requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of the following:
2. Documentation that the individual completed military, law enforcement, or security training that gave the individual experience with firearms that is substantially equivalent to a course or program under subd.
14. Documentation of completion of small arms training while serving in the U.S. armed forces, reserves, or national guard as demonstrated by an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions or a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and certification
Viper
Regular Member
If your DD214 shows weapon qualifications it should be assumed that you completed small arms training prior to the weapon qualification. The military does NOT allow you on their ranges without training. In fact, the weapon qualifications recorded on the form should equate to training, since it is actual training.
Hopefully some air head at DOJ doesn't make an incorrect decision and deny an individual a permit because that individuals DD214 doesn't show small arms training, but does show small arms qualification.
Hopefully some air head at DOJ doesn't make an incorrect decision and deny an individual a permit because that individuals DD214 doesn't show small arms training, but does show small arms qualification.
logables
Regular Member
I have to agree with you PPF and Glockface, pretty much only very basic information is available from the DoD after that long.
Members of this forum who served in the military will have a DD214N (DD214 as some call it). This form is your Report of Separation from Active Duty. depending on which branch of service you served, the remarks section may or may not have what training you received or may have only part of it listed. Also depended on whatever the person processing you DD214N felt like how much to type in the Remarks section.
The DD214 should not be confused with your DD256 which is you Certificate of Discharge (honorable, general, etc) which is issued after you have completed your total military obligation. An example, I signed a six year obligation, 4 years active duty, 2 years inactive reserve. I was released from active duty in May 75 (DD214N), but did not get my Certificate of Discharge( DD256)until January 1977.
And no, I am not a know it all, I was a Personnelman while in the Navy and my job was to take care of enlisted personnel military records. I processed many, many DD214 forms. Albeit many years ago.
IcrewUH60
Regular Member
I am going to have to agree with Paul. As I read it, the "OR"s are optional requirements of proof. So:
you can stop right there, no? The rest is "OR"
My "Documentation" of "Small Arms Training while serving in the U.S. Armed Forces" is my DD214 with an "Honorble Discharge"
For me the key words for interpretation is "As Demonstrated By". Everything after that next "OR" is optional, so even though my DD214 does not specifically state "Small Arms Training" that requirement is met and demonstrated by the DD214 itself because it shows:
1) Proof of service in the U.S. Armed Forces (where everyone completes "small arms" training in basic training as the M-16 is considered "small arms")
2) Honorable Discharge
my thoughts.
you can stop right there, no? The rest is "OR"
My "Documentation" of "Small Arms Training while serving in the U.S. Armed Forces" is my DD214 with an "Honorble Discharge"
For me the key words for interpretation is "As Demonstrated By". Everything after that next "OR" is optional, so even though my DD214 does not specifically state "Small Arms Training" that requirement is met and demonstrated by the DD214 itself because it shows:
1) Proof of service in the U.S. Armed Forces (where everyone completes "small arms" training in basic training as the M-16 is considered "small arms")
2) Honorable Discharge
my thoughts.
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You have NO idea what you are talking about, and you have COMPLETELY CONTRADICTED YOURSELF so YOU check your facts before attacking someone for answering someone else question with the information they were given.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
You are right. I fixed it. I had a typo. Sue me. It should of read 'any of the 'or's', not 'all the or's'.
paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
My opinion, remember I am not a lawyer, is that as long as you have proof of an honorable or general discharge under honorable conditions, you are covered.
Make up your own mind, read the law. It clearly has an 'or' and specifically says in other parts that the DOJ CANNOT require live fire training.
HandyHamlet
Regular Member
Congratulations on the first non troll post of your membership.
My hardline opinion.
And Paul. I still love you.
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rcawdor57
Campaign Veteran
Mr. Fisher Is 100% Correct. DD214 under honorable or general will suffice.
I just read the entire thread and am somewhat shocked at some of the responses. The law is very clear and very specific. If a person has an honorable or general discharge from the U.S. Military it suffices as proof of training under Wisconsin law. It does NOT have to state ANY firearms training of any kind on the DD214.
A person can be "discharged" under honorable conditions AND transfer to inactive reserve status or just be done with it all based on circumstances and/or the situation of the individual. Eg. If you were a Navy member and retired at the 20 year point or any time up to but not including the 30 year point then when you were "Separated" as stated in Block 23 on the DD214 (Type Of Separation) you would be "Transferred To The Fleet Reserve" and Block 24 (CHARACTER OF SERVICE (include upgrades) would have "HONORABLE" in that block.
I have 6 DD214's (yes, all mine) and only a few of them have any mention of small arms training. My final one has no mention of it at all and only covers the last term of my enlistment. An enlistment period can be ANY amount of time based on situations and specific contracts signed by the individual for his or her agreed upon time in the military. My first DD214 was after only 2 years in the military. I did not "get out" but simply re-enlisted which terminated the remainder of my initial contract and started a new, 6 year contract. My last time period was for 1 year and 3 months for which I have my final DD214.
I have used my final DD214 as proof of training for other states concealed carry licenses in the past and have had no problems at all. There is no mention of boot camp or small arms training on my final DD214.
LINK to Elvis's DD214: http://photos.elvispresley.com.au/army_discharge_orders_elvis_presley_214_form.html
Granted that Elvis's DD214 is old but the information on it is basically the same as what I am holding in my hand at this moment. Notice that Elvis's DD214 has NO MENTION of small arms training. Notice he also was discharged under Honorable conditions and transferred to the Army Reserve.
I just read the entire thread and am somewhat shocked at some of the responses. The law is very clear and very specific. If a person has an honorable or general discharge from the U.S. Military it suffices as proof of training under Wisconsin law. It does NOT have to state ANY firearms training of any kind on the DD214.
A person can be "discharged" under honorable conditions AND transfer to inactive reserve status or just be done with it all based on circumstances and/or the situation of the individual. Eg. If you were a Navy member and retired at the 20 year point or any time up to but not including the 30 year point then when you were "Separated" as stated in Block 23 on the DD214 (Type Of Separation) you would be "Transferred To The Fleet Reserve" and Block 24 (CHARACTER OF SERVICE (include upgrades) would have "HONORABLE" in that block.
I have 6 DD214's (yes, all mine) and only a few of them have any mention of small arms training. My final one has no mention of it at all and only covers the last term of my enlistment. An enlistment period can be ANY amount of time based on situations and specific contracts signed by the individual for his or her agreed upon time in the military. My first DD214 was after only 2 years in the military. I did not "get out" but simply re-enlisted which terminated the remainder of my initial contract and started a new, 6 year contract. My last time period was for 1 year and 3 months for which I have my final DD214.
I have used my final DD214 as proof of training for other states concealed carry licenses in the past and have had no problems at all. There is no mention of boot camp or small arms training on my final DD214.
LINK to Elvis's DD214: http://photos.elvispresley.com.au/army_discharge_orders_elvis_presley_214_form.html
Granted that Elvis's DD214 is old but the information on it is basically the same as what I am holding in my hand at this moment. Notice that Elvis's DD214 has NO MENTION of small arms training. Notice he also was discharged under Honorable conditions and transferred to the Army Reserve.
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BROKENSPROKET
Regular Member
If that is your position, then why did you so strongly attack CCW412?
That is half true. You cannot taket he "as demonstrated by" or all the "ors" you keep pointing out to discount the first first seven words of the paragragh which are "Documentation of completion of small arms training......"
The DD214 or the DD256, has to have such documentation on it for it to be used for a training requirment. There are other forms of proof of trianing that military and vets can use also. Paragraph 2. has alot broader language.
I came at you strongly because you came at CWW412 so strongly.
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paul@paul-fisher.com
Regular Member
I do apologize for flying off the handle, however. I am usually even tempered but have been a touch cranky lately. Not a good excuse as I should be more civil.
I do stand by the essence of my post, however, but not the tone.
Sorry again.
I do stand by the essence of my post, however, but not the tone.
Sorry again.