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Scenario: What would you do?

InspctrClouseau

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About a year ago, a buddy of mine was standing in line at a Walmart McDonalds here in the Valley while OCing. A group of young 'gangbanger wannabes' were behind him in line, and at some point, one of them tugged on his pistol and stated, "Nice gun, let me see it." According to my buddy, it didn't seem like the guy who tugged on his pistol was actually trying to unholster it, but was really just "pushing buttons" if you will, trying to see my friend's response. Anyway, my friend turned around, placed his hand on his weapon, and had gave them some verbal Hell. The "gangbanger wannabes" laughed about it, and said they wouldn't touch his pistol again. He kept his guard up, ordered, and ate his meal there without further incident.

So, what would you have done in this situation? Do you think my friend did the right thing? How far would you have taken this?
 

PistolPackingMomma

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I would, hopefully, have enough situational awareness to prevent such an incident from ever happening in the first place.
 
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Grapeshot

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In most states (all?) this would constitute assault and battery.

That type of thing would never be considered a jest/joke, especially when involving a deadly weapon.
 

RetiredOC

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Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
About a year ago, a buddy of mine was standing in line at a Walmart McDonalds here in the Valley while OCing. A group of young 'gangbanger wannabes' were behind him in line, and at some point, one of them tugged on his pistol and stated, "Nice gun, let me see it." According to my buddy, it didn't seem like the guy who tugged on his pistol was actually trying to unholster it, but was really just "pushing buttons" if you will, trying to see my friend's response. Anyway, my friend turned around, placed his hand on his weapon, and had gave them some verbal Hell. The "gangbanger wannabes" laughed about it, and said they wouldn't touch his pistol again. He kept his guard up, ordered, and ate his meal there without further incident.

So, what would you have done in this situation? Do you think my friend did the right thing? How far would you have taken this?

Do you know what type of retention holster your buddy had? (if any at all)
 

Badger Johnson

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Jan 12, 2011
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First, agree, SA not up to par. Turn strong side away from anyone in line, don't let people get within grabbing distances. BUT...as it happened:

GangBangerWannaBe tugs at pistol

Buddy: 'What is your name?'
GBWB: 'Billy Bob'
Buddy: 'Well Billy Bob, did you just tug at my pistol?'
GBWB: 'Yeah, let me see it'
Buddy: 'Did you know I got you on tape admitting to a crime?'
GBWB: 'Oops, just kidding, man'.

Buddy watches them leave, gets license plate, calls into PD with name and plate number and says he'd like to file assault charges, he's got it on audio tape the guy admitting it'.

Reason #422 to always run a recorder when OC-ing. :)
 

rushcreek2

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Jun 27, 2010
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Colorado Springs. CO
Sadly, this incident illustrates WHY many people do not OC. Those who choose to OC had better be prepared to discourage such behavior through their "attitude", posture, demeanor, and body language.
 

rushcreek2

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Jun 27, 2010
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Location
Colorado Springs. CO
I am justified in taking any reasonable DEFENSIVE ACTION necessary to retain control of my holstered weapon. That includes the USE OF THAT WEAPON if necessary. I would suggest that a statement to that effect directed at the clown would be in order.
 
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Badger Johnson

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I am justified in taking any reasonable DEFENSIVE ACTION necessary to retain control of my holstered weapon. That includes the USE OF THAT WEAPON if necessary. I would suggest that a statement to that effect directed at the clown would be in order.

That is VERY inadvisable. If the 'clown' has friends nearby (according to the story) they will hear you threatening them UNARMED kids. All they have to do is embellish a little and you end up losing (loosing in OCDO parlance) your pistol permit and probably get your firearm confiscated. After all these are just kids "horsing around".

So, prevention, recording, SA are the key elements. Don't let people get within reach of your strong side to begin with.

HTH
 

Malcolm

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
88
Location
Cleveland Ohio
Interesting scenario

I like the points brought up. Audio Recorder (Sad in this world that it would be/almost necessary). And to always remain professional and smart. The idea of using the McDonald's surveillance as evidence to a crime. Unfortunately, some people are raised/born with no common sense or respect. I fully agree with pressing charges against those individuals. Besides, touching another mans gun like that is pretty demeaning. I love my gun and no one touches it without my permission. Like my guitars (Someone touching something expensive and important without your permission. See if they get invited over again). It sucks that happened.

My answer, It's hard to say how a person can respond to such ignorance.

-M
 

acmariner99

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Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
655
Location
Renton, Wa
Wow, this sounds similar to an incident that happened to me a couple years ago in Everett, WA. I like the responses so far -- get a recorder, get a retention holster and/or retention training, and be prepared to encounter loonies like this. Knowing what I know now, I would face my assailant but keep the weapon strong side away from him/them and be ready to inflict negative feedback if needed, ask if they just attempted to seize my weapon and get it on tape if possible, move away from them and call 911. Somebody has a real death wish for trying to "push buttons" or otherwise trying to take somebody's weapon. Any LEO would have that person on the pavement or worse if somebody tried to touch, let alone try to take their weapon.
 

azcdlfred

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Dec 10, 2006
Messages
901
Location
Tucson, Arizona, USA
Anyway, my friend turned around, placed his hand on his weapon, and had gave them some verbal Hell.
Once your friend put his hand on the gun and started giving the kids a verbal lashing, he put himself in the position of being the bad guy and escalating the situation. He's lucky no one called the cops.

We (AzCDL) got Arizona law changed to allow for "defensive display" which would include placing your hand on a holstered firearm, as a response to a threat, which in this case is "iffy" and would probably wind up being determined in a court room at great expense.

Fred
 

Badger Johnson

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Once your friend put his hand on the gun and started giving the kids a verbal lashing, he put himself in the position of being the bad guy and escalating the situation. He's lucky no one called the cops.

We (AzCDL) got Arizona law changed to allow for "defensive display" which would include placing your hand on a holstered firearm, as a response to a threat, which in this case is "iffy" and would probably wind up being determined in a court room at great expense.

Fred

This is sad and unfortunate, because in this case putting his hand on the gun was more of a 'retention', anti-grab measure, but could be construed as a defensive display or brandish. I think the key thing is to realize that 'saying' anything is only going to make your actions indefensible. If you are not going to take the necessary steps to insure retention and safe carrying (recorder going, SA, not going stupid places OR leaving stupid places), then IMO one should not be OC-ing. You should be prepared to LEAVE the area if you get that 'vibe' and I bet he got it and ignored it.
 

JesseL

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
207
Location
Prescott, Arizona, USA
If you are not going to take the necessary steps to insure retention and safe carrying (recorder going, SA, not going stupid places OR leaving stupid places), then IMO one should not be OC-ing. You should be prepared to LEAVE the area if you get that 'vibe' and I bet he got it and ignored it.

Wait, what?

If someone doesn't have a recorder going at all times they shouldn't be open carrying?

I could see it being a good idea in someplace where OC had a high chance of precipitating police encounters, but it would never even occur to me here.
 

InspctrClouseau

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Once your friend put his hand on the gun and started giving the kids a verbal lashing, he put himself in the position of being the bad guy and escalating the situation. He's lucky no one called the cops.

We (AzCDL) got Arizona law changed to allow for "defensive display" which would include placing your hand on a holstered firearm, as a response to a threat, which in this case is "iffy" and would probably wind up being determined in a court room at great expense.

Fred

From what he told me, he put his hand on his pistol to reinforce retention, not for an intimidation factor or anything like that. I agree with what you're saying, though, because all it takes is one California-transplant to see it and freak out. Next thing you know, Phoenix PD will have the place surrounded...
 

InspctrClouseau

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Just to be clear...
I should have clarified in my original post, but I did not; the instigators were not kids or young teenagers. From his description, there were four of them, they were in their early to mid 20's, and dressed in the "gangster wannabe" fashion, that is, sideway baseball caps, jeans hanging down to their knees, etc. Just wanted to clear that up in case anyone thought I was referring to literal kids, as in 12 year olds.
 

skidmark

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Jan 15, 2007
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It's nice to know that there are places where the chances of encountering the cops is slight, regardless of the circumstances an OCer might find themself in. Although I do wonder why the cops would not show up after you shot someone in self defense, or finished whatever kata/ballet you practice should you encounter someone trying to grab your handgun.

But for those of us who live in places where the cops are likely to show up, and probably be less than friendly when they arrive, having both the means to memorialize the encounter and to make documentary reference to the events the necessitated the cops' attendance at the scene, is comforting. Most of the time I end the day by deleting hours of traffic noises, the programs on the car radio, and brief contacts with folks who exchange coffee for money, or groceries for money. Every once in a while there was some exchange that I want to save, so it all goes on the computer hard drive and I edit out everything else. Full erases take less than a minute to wipe out, while saving and editing may take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour or so. If I believe there is a reason to save the data the time to save and edit it is, to me, worth it.

I can't say for sure, as each situation has certain differences that require some adjustment to my response, but unless I am in custodial arrest I consider any attempt to touch, let alone remove, my handgun to be an assault that places me in iminent jeopardy of death or serious bodily injury. I'll be doing something to mitigate that threat, be it a verbal warning or something ending with me in Full Sabrina posture.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108205

stay safe.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
About a year ago, a buddy of mine was standing in line at a Walmart McDonalds here in the Valley while OCing. A group of young 'gangbanger wannabes' were behind him in line, and at some point, one of them tugged on his pistol and stated, "Nice gun, let me see it." According to my buddy, it didn't seem like the guy who tugged on his pistol was actually trying to unholster it, but was really just "pushing buttons" if you will, trying to see my friend's response. Anyway, my friend turned around, placed his hand on his weapon, and had gave them some verbal Hell. The "gangbanger wannabes" laughed about it, and said they wouldn't touch his pistol again. He kept his guard up, ordered, and ate his meal there without further incident.

So, what would you have done in this situation? Do you think my friend did the right thing? How far would you have taken this?

I highlighted the point of failure.


SA failure of monumental proportions. The hand of another person should never have gotten near enough to tug on the pistol.
 

sharkey

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Messages
1,064
Location
Arizona
Permit? What's that?


That is VERY inadvisable. If the 'clown' has friends nearby (according to the story) they will hear you threatening them UNARMED kids. All they have to do is embellish a little and you end up losing (loosing in OCDO parlance) your pistol permit and probably get your firearm confiscated. After all these are just kids "horsing around".

So, prevention, recording, SA are the key elements. Don't let people get within reach of your strong side to begin with.

HTH
 
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