I think it's time to have a serious discusiion....

KyDevilDog · Dec 15, 2012

I know I am a new member on this site. Hello to all. I don't think arming teachers will fly. Who will own the guns? Either way, if it is the school or the teachers own weapon, there will be a very large liability. I think modifying the school buildings will be more productive. At Pikeville High School, you have two sets of doors. The inner doors, you have to be buzzed in to gain admission. There still are security flaws there. Once entering the outside doors, a person can go threw the office to gain access to the rest of the school. Also, it appears to me the glass in the inner doors are not security glass. It doesn't look thick enough to be bullet proof, and it doesn't even have the wire embedded in them to give them strength. I think with a few modifications, Pikeville could be a model school for others to follow as far as security.

Sundiver · Dec 15, 2012

Glockster, can you send me a PM with cites for what you posted? Not that I don't believe you, I do. I'd like to use it in various forums and people /will/ want proof of the "Facts" you know how that goes.

Sundiver · Dec 15, 2012

I think we can all safely say that any response to this will be purely emotional. I know it's saddened and deeply angered me. I have children. It hits me at a visceral level. That being said, if you take a step back and look at it. It should, as sad as it is to say be a non-event in the larger perspective. I'm willing to bet that more gang members die than this on a daily basis. I'm willing to bet that more vehicular homicides occur than this on a daily basis. I guess I blame the media more than anyone else for blowing this out of scale. Sure it's sad, but we all know that the media will jump all over /any/ gun story they can spin to anti-gun on a moments notice and hd while stories of people saving the lives of loved ones and even complete strangers with a firearm go largely unreported.

Maybe we can use that as an angle? Make sure the stories where guns save lives get attention, even if it's people from the OpenCarry community making the posts and blogs and phone calls? I dunno, just spitballing ideas.

PS: I should note in the spirit of full disclosure than I can make these comments from safety and security, my children are home-schooled. So, I'm not as invested in the public school systems as I once was.

Citizen · Dec 16, 2012

Sundiver said:
I think we can all safely say that any response to this will be purely emotional. I know it's saddened and deeply angered me. I have children. It hits me at a visceral level. That being said, if you take a step back and look at it. It should, as sad as it is to say be a non-event in the larger perspective. I'm willing to bet that more gang members die than this on a daily basis. I'm willing to bet that more vehicular homicides occur than this on a daily basis. I guess I blame the media more than anyone else for blowing this out of scale. Sure it's sad, but we all know that the media will jump all over /any/ gun story they can spin to anti-gun on a moments notice and hd while stories of people saving the lives of loved ones and even complete strangers with a firearm go largely unreported.

Maybe we can use that as an angle? Make sure the stories where guns save lives get attention, even if it's people from the OpenCarry community making the posts and blogs and phone calls? I dunno, just spitballing ideas.

PS: I should note in the spirit of full disclosure than I can make these comments from safety and security, my children are home-schooled. So, I'm not as invested in the public school systems as I once was.

I was thinking about that earlier today.

Two thoughts.

Can you imagine the anxiety level of some little kids in public schools? Imagine what its like going to a public school knowing the cops won't arrive until 10 to 20 of you are dead?

And, I wonder what would happen if parents started pulling their kids out of public schools until teachers and administrators could CC permits and carry at school?

Matt w · Dec 16, 2012

arming our teachers isnt the problem. could be a solution. trust is the problem. that is the reason i carry cause i dont know who to trust or when s*** will hit the fan. but that school had one way in and one way out(aside from fire exits which are locked from the outside) the lady at the front desk saw this man as no harm and buzzed him in free to do what ever. metal detectors in the front door wont hurt a bit and would have stopped that right then and there plus all of the other school shootings. its peoples trust issues that let that happen. not blaming the woman. but had there been a metal detector and her not let him through the other door a lot more lives would have been saved

self preservation · Dec 16, 2012

Matt w said:
arming our teachers isnt the problem. could be a solution. trust is the problem. that is the reason i carry cause i dont know who to trust or when s*** will hit the fan. but that school had one way in and one way out(aside from fire exits which are locked from the outside) the lady at the front desk saw this man as no harm and buzzed him in free to do what ever. metal detectors in the front door wont hurt a bit and would have stopped that right then and there plus all of the other school shootings. its peoples trust issues that let that happen. not blaming the woman. but had there been a metal detector and her not let him through the other door a lot more lives would have been saved

I hope to hell that you don't actually believe all of this.

arming our teachers isnt the problem

Sure. Because them being sitting ducks worked out real nice.

i dont know who to trust or when s*** will hit the fan.

The same thing applies to teachers. You should be able to be armed so you can have defense when things go bad but teachers shouldn't? Please explain.

the lady at the front desk saw this man as no harm and buzzed him in free to do what ever

I wasn't there and neither was you. But I bet he didn't conceal his rifle. I'm sure she had to see he was holding it. What I have read (take it for what it's worth) he forced his way in.

but had there been a metal detector and her not let him through the other door a lot more lives would have been saved

Sure it would have have because a machine going "beep,beep beep" would have made this cold blooded killer think twice.:banghead:

KYGlockster · Dec 16, 2012

Matt w said:
arming our teachers isnt the problem. could be a solution. trust is the problem. that is the reason i carry cause i dont know who to trust or when s*** will hit the fan. but that school had one way in and one way out(aside from fire exits which are locked from the outside) the lady at the front desk saw this man as no harm and buzzed him in free to do what ever. metal detectors in the front door wont hurt a bit and would have stopped that right then and there plus all of the other school shootings. its peoples trust issues that let that happen. not blaming the woman. but had there been a metal detector and her not let him through the other door a lot more lives would have been saved

What could a metal detector have done to stop this? Can a metal detector shoot the man in the head when it sees a rifle in the man's hands? No. Even with metal detectors, who would have stopped him from entering? Nobody! He would've shot whoever attempted to stop him, just like he did anyways. The ONLY thing that can stop someone bent on harming people is someone with EQUAL FORCE. A firearm is the only asnwer in these situations!

Teachers in my school district must have background checks completed before they can teach at the school, so how trust can be an issue regarding teachers carrying shouldn't be an issue. If I trust these people with my children, I can trust them with ANYTHING. I wouldn't be concerned anyways, because I trust the teachers that teach my children, just as I trust other Americans that carry firearms. Why should I trust anyone if I cannot trust our educators? Not that background checks tell the true character of an individual, but they sure help.

Teachers; assistants; office staff; if any of these individuals had been armed this man would have been killed immediately! The only way for a teacher to carry in my opinion is to carry on their person, that way they always have control over the firearm and they also have immediate access to it.

The anti-gunners are right; it is time to do something about this problem. What we need to do is rescind all of the laws that prohibit those legally able to possess firearms from possessing them in K-12 schools. It is ignorant that we can carry everywhere except a K-12 school. We carry around kids -- hundreds of kids -- everyday, all day without incident. What changes when we go into a school house? Absolutely nothing, but for some odd reason some people believe a school is a sacred place where violence will not occur if they put some words to paper. This is coming from people living in fantasy land of course, because those with an open-mind and common sense know it doesn't work.

We must have EQUAL FORCE TO MATCH FORCE. Without this we can do nothing when someone comes at us and our children with firearms.

KYGlockster · Dec 16, 2012

Sundiver said:
Glockster, can you send me a PM with cites for what you posted? Not that I don't believe you, I do. I'd like to use it in various forums and people /will/ want proof of the "Facts" you know how that goes.

I will later but if you want to look it up for yourself I will give you the places to look. There are numerous different pages and it would be a pain to post them all.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr -- Here you can search through the UCRs of years past. UCR stands for Uniform Crime Report, and most agencies contribute to this information.

Useful information at these as well:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/

http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/NACJD/NCVS/

http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/NACJD/NIBRS/

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=128

These should get you started. It will take you awhile to get through it all, but this is where the information can be found. There are also reports conducted by numerous different organizations and the individuals. Go to www.nra.org and search for crime statistics and the like.

Here is a link to 18 USC 922 where the FGFSZ is located:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

I would also reccomend you read the book "More Guns, Less Crime" by economist John Lott. This is where I have studied this information in detail, and he goes above and beyond in his research, and breaks everything down into individual counties in each state (where data is available). It is hard to argue against his research, as it is the most extensive there has been to date.

http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=7235 -- debate between John Lott and previous Brady president.

You can get the book at www.amazon.com for a kindle for only $5. If you don't have a kindle, you can download a free version of kindle from Amazon for free, and the book will be on your computer in seconds.

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/fighting-back-crime-selfdefense-right-carry-handgun

It is lengthy and it is from 1997, but it still shows the correlation between more guns and lower crime.

Sundiver · Dec 16, 2012

KYGlockster said:
I will later but if you want to look it up for yourself I will give you the places to look. There are numerous different pages and it would be a pain to post them all.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr -- Here you can search through the UCRs of years past. UCR stands for Uniform Crime Report, and most agencies contribute to this information.

Useful information at these as well:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/

http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/NACJD/NCVS/

http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/icpsrweb/NACJD/NIBRS/

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=128

These should get you started. It will take you awhile to get through it all, but this is where the information can be found. There are also reports conducted by numerous different organizations and the individuals. Go to www.nra.org and search for crime statistics and the like.

Here is a link to 18 USC 922 where the FGFSZ is located:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

I would also reccomend you read the book "More Guns, Less Crime" by economist John Lott. This is where I have studied this information in detail, and he goes above and beyond in his research, and breaks everything down into individual counties in each state (where data is available). It is hard to argue against his research, as it is the most extensive there has been to date.

http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=7235 -- debate between John Lott and previous Brady president.

You can get the book at www.amazon.com for a kindle for only $5. If you don't have a kindle, you can download a free version of kindle from Amazon for free, and the book will be on your computer in seconds.

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/fighting-back-crime-selfdefense-right-carry-handgun

It is lengthy and it is from 1997, but it still shows the correlation between more guns and lower crime.

Thanks, Sir. All I needed.

UnfetteredMight · Dec 16, 2012

A small school district in Texas has decided to allow their teachers to be armed and apparently, according to the article, Utah allows it state wide.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404721,00.html

self preservation · Dec 16, 2012

UnfetteredMight said:
A small school district in Texas has decided to allow their teachers to be armed and apparently, according to the article, Utah allows it state wide.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404721,00.html

That's f**king awesome. Now how do we get KY on board???

UnfetteredMight · Dec 16, 2012

self preservation said:
That's f**king awesome. Now how do we get KY on board???

Well first thing would be to come up with an idea that would appeal to the most poeple and this is not going to be completely what we want. If we could get person(s) in calculated geographic areas start local petitions. Go door to door, go to your local PD and Sheriff and see if you can get their signatures. The greatest number of signatures from each area compiled with that of all areas could then be presented to those of us that have connections in the legislature to see if we can get sponsors and co-sponsors to support this bill. It begins the regular process from there.

Here I believe is my latest proposition.

The "Gun Free School Zones" amendment to the Brady bill passed so long ago isn't stopping us as only a state issued permit is required to overcome this federal law and our state law already allows individuals to come on school property with permission.

Although I would prefer for all school personal to be armed, some have expressed concerns about access to students even if they are under lock and key.

So my proposition is this.

1) Two armed security guards along with metal detectors at the entrance.
2) Most schools now have buzz in access, but anyone can get into the office before their intentions and identity are determined and as such these methods are pointless. Intent and identification should be determined before access beyond the locked door should be standard procedure and the office should have locked and secure firearms available to those that wish to have access.
3) These people wishing access should undergo metal evaluations and training in the proficient use of these firearms as a last measure in case access beyond the locked door is somehow obtained.

Now I myself do not believe that any requirements should exist for one to possess and carry a firearm, but in order to sell this to the greatest number of citizens and Kentucky legislators, certain "meeting at the halfway point" is understandable and warranted. Stepping stones people, stepping stones.

I look for your input and I request that you speak to your families and friends about this. "Gun Free Zones" have been "Free Kill Zones" for long enough! We need to do something now!

flb_78 · Dec 16, 2012

The article about the Texas School District is 4 and a half years old. I was living in Texas when it happened.

Texas law allows those with a CHL to carry in school buildings IF they have permission from the school board. So far the Harold School District is the only one that allows it.

Sundiver · Dec 17, 2012

UnfetteredMight said:
Well first thing would be to come up with an idea that would appeal to the most poeple and this is not going to be completely what we want. If we could get person(s) in calculated geographic areas start local petitions. Go door to door, go to your local PD and Sheriff and see if you can get their signatures. The greatest number of signatures from each area compiled with that of all areas could then be presented to those of us that have connections in the legislature to see if we can get sponsors and co-sponsors to support this bill. It begins the regular process from there.

Here I believe is my latest proposition.

The "Gun Free School Zones" amendment to the Brady bill passed so long ago isn't stopping us as only a state issued permit is required to overcome this federal law and our state law already allows individuals to come on school property with permission.

Although I would prefer for all school personal to be armed, some have expressed concerns about access to students even if they are under lock and key.

So my proposition is this.

1) Two armed security guards along with metal detectors at the entrance.
2) Most schools now have buzz in access, but anyone can get into the office before their intentions and identity are determined and as such these methods are pointless. Intent and identification should be determined before access beyond the locked door should be standard procedure and the office should have locked and secure firearms available to those that wish to have access.
3) These people wishing access should undergo metal evaluations and training in the proficient use of these firearms as a last measure in case access beyond the locked door is somehow obtained.

Now I myself do not believe that any requirements should exist for one to possess and carry a firearm, but in order to sell this to the greatest number of citizens and Kentucky legislators, certain "meeting at the halfway point" is understandable and warranted. Stepping stones people, stepping stones.

I look for your input and I request that you speak to your families and friends about this. "Gun Free Zones" have been "Free Kill Zones" for long enough! We need to do something now!

I like the idea? I think I take exception with the two armed "security guards". I'd rather see something that permitted the additional hiring of two LEO's for the exclusive purpose of school guard duty. This is admittedly a knee-jerk response and no doubt needs further reflection. I can see problems with this in terms of expense even as I type it but, I don't like the idea of two minimum wage, armed security guards either. I'd want them to have extensive and I mean extensive training, psychological testing, everything. They should be at least as well paid as the teachers. Something built into the school budgets.

A double door would be good for #2, reinforced doors with the detector between. I still see problems, to someone bent on raising hell, windows provide easy access. There must be a loading dock area at schools for furniture, and bulk food shipments that would need to be accounted for. sniper on the hill, car bomb scenarios. I know it's outside the scope of what we're discussing here, just thinking of all the night,are school scenarios we face today.

MackTheKnife · Dec 17, 2012

Gun lock?

Sundiver said:
I'd have to agree with both of you. I made the comparison to teachers and pilots in another thread. Before 9/11 if a commercial pilot had been caught with a pistol in the cockpit he'd be doing federal time. Now? It's considered sound policy. It's time to start getting people into the same mindset with the educators of our children.

You can put a pistol box in every classroom. Biometrically secured with a gun lock on the pistol inside. It stays there until the teacher hears gunshots. There are always options and ways of doing things.

The biometric gun vault would alleviate the need for doing a combination or remembering a finger pattern, but an additional lock on the gun as well? When the need arises for the gun, fumbling for a key to unlock the gun would be counterproductive, and possibly fatal.

Sundiver · Dec 17, 2012

I'd be interested to know how many teachers in Texas and Utah begin CC'ing over the next few months that didn't before this happened.

WalkingWolf · Dec 17, 2012

MackTheKnife said:
The biometric gun vault would alleviate the need for doing a combination or remembering a finger pattern, but an additional lock on the gun as well? When the need arises for the gun, fumbling for a key to unlock the gun would be counterproductive, and possibly fatal.

Just let the teachers carry whether openly or concealed.

self preservation · Dec 17, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
Just let the teachers carry whether openly or concealed.

I think the concern about teachers OC'ing is the perception from students, parents and the like. Would it bother me to see my son's math teacher rocking a .40 on their hip? No. I would find comfort in it. Will Ms. Soccer mom feel the same way? Doubt it. I think the concealed weapon comes with the "outta sight, outta mind." Plus the argument that an OC'd gun would be to easy for a student to get.

On an unrelated side note, is the OCDO site running slow for any of you or is it just me?

WalkingWolf · Dec 17, 2012

self preservation said:
I think the concern about teachers OC'ing is the perception from students, parents and the like. Would it bother me to see my son's math teacher rocking a .40 on their hip? No. I would find comfort in it. Will Ms. Soccer mom feel the same way? Doubt it. I think the concealed weapon comes with the "outta sight, outta mind." Plus the argument that an OC'd gun would be to easy for a student to get.

On an unrelated side note, is the OCDO site running slow for any of you or is it just me?

The bolded argument carries no weight whatsoever. NOTHING to back it up. Students perception would be no different than seeing LAC carrying in public.

self preservation · Dec 17, 2012

WalkingWolf said:
The bolded argument carries no weight whatsoever. NOTHING to back it up. Students perception would be no different than seeing LAC carrying in public.

I never said it carried any weight. Never said there was anything to back it up. I OC all the time without fear of my gun being taken. That is just an argument that we would hear in regards to school staff OC'ing. Hell, we hear it now from the "elite" CC's out there from time to time (in regards to us OC'ing). As I said, I wouldn't care if teachers OC'd or CC. As long as they are carrying. But I do not believe that student perception would be the same as a LAC in public. Reason being is I have not been a student for a long time but if I saw a person OC'ing in a school, it would look weird to me, as I'm sure it would to them (this is assuming that the act of OC'ing in a school was legal and I'm sure it would look less weird as time went on)

You have people like us that are wide open to the idea. But you also have Ms. Soccer mom that isn't quite sold on the idea yet. The "gun free school zone" has been around for a long time. People are use to having it around. I think that if we wanted to change that it would take slow changes here and there to make it happen and make it generally acceptable. This would have to be a "give a little take a little" kind of approach. What's the old saying about boiling a frog, turn the heat up to fast and he will jump out, but turn the heat up a little at a time and........

This is the same approach our government uses on us. I've heard it said many a time "they try to our guns and a war will break out." But first they take away our right to own fully automatics, then they do a little "Brady bunchin'", then they restrict how many rounds we can carry, then they restrict how we can carry, then they restrict where we can carry, then they start charging us fee's for our rights, etc etc. We bitc* and moan and sometimes we fight back a little. But no civil war as if they turned the heat up all at once. They boil us to death slow and when it's all said and done we only have spring loaded BB guns that we can only play with in our back yards.

I think it's time to have a serious discusiion....

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