RAS while carrying

Raggs · Mar 1, 2014

If you are open carrying and a cop sees you get into a motor vehicle, is that RAS?

If a LEO sees you go from open carry to concealed when you put a jacket on is that RAS?

A citizen reports that they saw your concealed carry gun, Does LE have RAS to ask for your CPL?

And finally you are open carrying in a PFZ would that give LEO RAS?

RAS of a crime to detain and require ID

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 1, 2014

Before your question can really be answered, you must ask the complete question, "articulable suspicion .......(of what)?"

Venator · Mar 1, 2014

Raggs said:
If you are open carrying and a cop sees you get into a motor vehicle, is that RAS?

If a LEO sees you go from open carry to concealed when you put a jacket on is that RAS?

A citizen reports that they saw your concealed carry gun, Does LE have RAS to ask for your CPL?

And finally you are open carrying in a PFZ would that give LEO RAS?

RAS of a crime to detain and require ID

You mean require to see a license to conceal, not just ID right?. In Michigan there is no requirement to produce a generic ID even with RAS.

This is an old argument and was discussed on this site several years ago. There were good arguments for either way. Most likely the general consensus was yes it is enough for RAS. I argued that no it was not BTW.

Raggs · Mar 1, 2014

Venator said:
You mean require to see a license to conceal, not just ID right?. In Michigan there is no requirement to produce a generic ID even with RAS.

This is an old argument and was discussed on this site several years ago. There were good arguments for either way. Most likely the general consensus was yes it is enough for RAS. I argued that no it was not BTW.

Figured it would be a good discussion, doubt any great truths will come out.

Maverick9 · Mar 1, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
Before your question can really be answered, you must ask the complete question, "articulable suspicion .......(of what)?"

Well consider that if it's vague it gives an officer a lot of latitude to interpret the action any way they like (i.e. to their advantage).

So, in some states the law is poorly written that allows this on-the-fly interpretation. Any state with 'must disclose' laws is an example (the cop can lie and say you failed to disclose).

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 1, 2014

Maverick9 said:
Well consider that if it's vague it gives an officer a lot of latitude to interpret the action any way they like (i.e. to their advantage).

So, in some states the law is poorly written that allows this on-the-fly interpretation. Any state with 'must disclose' laws is an example (the cop can lie and say you failed to disclose).

Exactly so. So when someone asks, "is ________ a reasonable suspicion?" you have to ask "Is _______ a reasonable suspicion of what, arson? bank robbery? child molestation? disorderly conduct? embezzlement? forgery? identity theft?"

In a state where it is generally legal to carry a firearm, then being seen carrying a firearm is as reasonably suspicious of illegal conduct as seeing someone drive a car in a state where driving a car is generally legal. *Some states vary of course, such as Illinois where carrying is generally illegal or Kentucky(?) where carrying a firearm is illegal and the license is not only a defense against the crime but must, by law, be presented upon request of law enforcement.*

Fallschirjmäger · Mar 1, 2014

If I may suggest, read this thread on Officer.com where RAS in regards to someone openly carrying is discussed, especially post #12.

DrTodd · Mar 4, 2014

Would probably go down like this:

http://www.fedagent.com/columns/case-law-updates/1077-case-law-update-01-09-14

Bikenut · Mar 5, 2014

Fallschirmjäger said:
If I may suggest, read this thread on Officer.com where RAS in regards to someone openly carrying is discussed, especially post #12.

I read that thread and am left with no doubt what so ever where the "us vs them" attitude is coming from.

I heard someone once say that many doctors think M.D. stands for "Miracle Doer".... It would appear from the comments in the thread linked to that some officers think COP stands for "Controller Of People"...

That isn't cop bashing... it is a comment on what I read after following the link in the post I quoted.

Big Gay Al · Mar 8, 2014

I don't know if it's RAS or not but, a couple of years ago a Leslie cop showed up at my Mason home following up on a call from a citizen that saw me get into my car while OCing. When he was informed that I have a CPL, he dropped it right there. He didn't even ask to see my license.

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Fallschirjmäger · Mar 8, 2014

Big Gay Al said:
I don't know if it's RAS or not but, a couple of years ago a Leslie cop showed up at my Mason home following up on a call from a citizen that saw me get into my car while OCing. When he was informed that I have a CPL, he dropped it right there. He didn't even ask to see my license.

Sounds like he found a morally acceptable excuse not to investigate a misdemeanor he wasn't witness to and didn't have probable cause to arrest for (assuming you wouldn't blab outright that you got in your car while OC'ing without a CPL.)

RAS while carrying

Raggs

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Venator

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