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Culpeper shooting

peter nap

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Does that mean there was a name change I missed?

Bob, you haven't gathered yet that there is usually a lot written between the lines.

Occasionally I have to check my drivers license to reassure myself I wasn't born yesterday.
 

Grapeshot

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This is my point as most people don't start driving away when they are talking to someone and that someone reaches into their vehicle UNLESS they are scared for their life. I'm sure it wasn't lets take this nice cop for a ride.....

Frightened, confused, belligerent, even scared possibly; but scared for her life over having had her DL requested - not likely. Don't see the way of her driving off as being germane to the case in any event.
 

DocWalker

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Frightened, confused, belligerent, even scared possibly; but scared for her life over having had her DL requested - not likely. Don't see the way of her driving off as being germane to the case in any event.

I have never heard of anyone casusally driving away while not taking time to remove their sun shade, while rolling up their window as they are being shot. I'm sure that is all that was said was the officers polite asking for her DL. This leaves the question of why was his arm in her window if all he did was ask for her DL? There is more here than the cop is saying, something was said or done to make her drive away and roll up her window without removing her sun shade. Her actions are more in the line with panic than a reasoned thought.
 

Grapeshot

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I have never heard of anyone casusally driving away while not taking time to remove their sun shade, while rolling up their window as they are being shot. I'm sure that is all that was said was the officers polite asking for her DL. This leaves the question of why was his arm in her window if all he did was ask for her DL? There is more here than the cop is saying, something was said or done to make her drive away and roll up her window without removing her sun shade. Her actions are more in the line with panic than a reasoned thought.

You may be right.

Still I cannot conclude that she casually drove away, rolling up the window with one hand, holding driving license w/another, steering the vehicle with yet another. She only needed 1 more hand to remove the sun screen. See, I can make unwarranted/unsupported assumptions too. :p
 

DocWalker

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You may be right.

Still I cannot conclude that she casually drove away, rolling up the window with one hand, holding driving license w/another, steering the vehicle with yet another. She only needed 1 more hand to remove the sun screen. See, I can make unwarranted/unsupported assumptions too. :p

Not so wild assumptions as someone doesn't calmly drive away without removing the blocked view. People in a panic will try to get away from the threat be it real or not. In a vehicle this would be done by rolling up the window, locking the door and driving away the three things that a person can do to put a barrier between the threat and the person. What makes me think she was paniced is that she didn't take the time to remove the shade to see where she was going.
 

Grapeshot

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Not so wild assumptions as someone doesn't calmly drive away without removing the blocked view. People in a panic will try to get away from the threat be it real or not. In a vehicle this would be done by rolling up the window, locking the door and driving away the three things that a person can do to put a barrier between the threat and the person. What makes me think she was paniced is that she didn't take the time to remove the shade to see where she was going.

My point is that any assumption of her mental process is unwarranted - not that she was panicked, not that she was delusional, not that she was reasonable. We only know what she did and/or did not do physically or claimed to have done by others.
 

skidmark

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Bob, you haven't gathered yet that there is usually a lot written between the lines.

Occasionally I have to check my drivers license to reassure myself I wasn't born yesterday.

Peter,

Please stop playing with Lazarus. Remember what happened the last time?:uhoh:

stay safe.
 

OC for ME

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Any assumptions on any of her anything is now moot, pure speculation, Interwebs forum blather. It is a he said-she can't say. The state has a tough row to hoe. She is dead and dead women tell no tales.

If this cop gets convicted of anything substantive I will be pleasantly surprised.
 

MAC702

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There is no evidence, testimony or factual report that the lady was in fear of her life. Fact of the matter is we don't know why she ran/drove away.

You emphasized the wrong part of Doc Walker's point. Try this:

Doc Walker said:
...--snip-- Unlike the Culpepper incedent were the cop is the only one still alive that knows what was said to make the lady fear for her life that she had to run.

This does not say he wasn't justified. It merely states the fact that the only other witness is dead.
 
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OC for ME

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Well, what else did you expect them to do? They obviously dont feel like doing real police work. So instead they become criminals themselves.
We'll have to wait for any lawsuits from those affected. If none manifest themselves then the cops will have completed the reeducation of the citizenry and will now be able to act with impunity.
 

Grapeshot

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You emphasized the wrong part of Doc Walker's point. Try this:

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Doc Walker

...--snip-- Unlike the Culpepper incedent were the cop is the only one still alive that knows what was said to make the lady fear for her life that she had to run.

This does not say he wasn't justified. It merely states the fact that the only other witness is dead.

Nope - I emphasized the point I intended.

There are other witnesses.
 

DocWalker

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Nope - I emphasized the point I intended.

There are other witnesses.

So there are other witnesses too what was said between the officer and the lady? I stand corrected I do hope it was recorded also.....sarcasim.

I know there where other witnesses to the physical events but unless they had bionic ears I figured they didn't hear what was said between the lady and the cop before she pulled away from the situation. If there is a recording or witnesses to what was said and done "inside" the jeep before she started driving I stand corrected.
 

marshaul

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Frightened, confused, belligerent, even scared possibly; but scared for her life over having had her DL requested - not likely. Don't see the way of her driving off as being germane to the case in any event.

It's germane, because only in the event of her having driven off aggressively is the fact an excuse for shooting her.

We don't have any recording or witness testimony of the start of the encounter.

If the officer was threatening or criminally aggressive (not uncommon; some officers some places interpret their training as encouraging that), her driving away becomes a defensive action, one she was forced to (in her mind) by the actions of the officer. Not only do her supposed felonies fly out the window due to necessity, but the defense of another claim by the officer does as well, as he was the individual responsible for creating the dangerous situation with his own criminal acts. You can't force a person to do something dangerous and then shoot them in self-defense. Is there a word for execution by entrapment?

Incidentally, I have very little doubt this is what happened. While my speculation isn't enough to convict a person (reasonable doubt and whatnot), it would take video evidence or strong witness testimony to change my mind. Occam's razor far suggests this over the "suicide by cop" scenario, if for no other reason that simply the way events played out. This cop may be unconvictable due to lack of evidence, but that does not mean he is innocent.

This is precisely why I argue that we ought to make it a felony to engage in law enforcement without video recordings made at all times (also prosecution ought to be made untenable without the same). The state ought to collect irrefutable proof before it begins killings its citizens in the name of "public safety" – especially when sunscreen visors are the threat model.

I'd point out that if I am correct, then this officer will get away with murder when he walks. And a simple video recording could have prevented that. Or, if I'm wrong, it could prove me so. Why is this not a clarion call to implement such policies? Is there anyone who is not a police officer who doesn't believe it would be a good idea? Why the hell are we allowing people with authority and impunity to act without oversight, when the means are readily and trivially available?
 

Grapeshot

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--snip--
If the officer was threatening or criminally aggressive (not uncommon; some officers some places interpret their training as encouraging that), her driving away becomes a defensive action, one she was forced to (in her mind) by the actions of the officer. Not only do her supposed felonies fly out the window due to necessity, but the defense of another claim by the officer does as well, as he was the individual responsible for creating the dangerous situation with his own criminal acts. You can't force a person to do something dangerous and then shoot them in self-defense. Is there a word for execution by entrapment?
--snip--

What reasonable, responsible person purports to leave or attempts to drive away from a seizure/detention? Seems to me that virtually 100% of the time we say to not engage in street court and after objection, stating that you are cooperating under duress or remain silent, follow through from the safety/comfort of your home or office. There was no "necessity" to her actions; she wasn't "forced" to make those decisions or respond the way she did - she chose to do so. Seriously bad judgement IMO and a situation that went from unpleasant to very bad because of it.

No one needs to tell me she was afraid - I get it, she probably was. Also don't need to be reminded that they officer reached into her vehicle - I get that too.

I don't particularly like the feeling I have developed regarding the officer nor I am particularly proud of her reactions, but I shall base my conclusions on the law as I understand it. There will be much to learn at the trial I think.

Is there a word for guilty by innuendo and assumption?
 

skidmark

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The problem I see with the most recent spate of speculation regarding what/why Mrs. Cook was doing is that it all would relate to a defense strategy were she on trial for some alleged crime she was charged with commiting. Such as, for example, some variation of the use of deadly force, where the defense claim would have been her excuse/justification in the resistance of an unlawful arrest.

But the problem is that Mrs. Cook is not on trial for anything.

So whether or not Mrs. Cook was being unlawfully arrested has nothing to do with why the cop shot her. It might be an issue the estate or her husband brings up in a civil suit.

Otherwise, we wind up with the CA foisting the theory that the cop shot her when she used lethal force to resist being unlawfully arrested. That means the CA has already accepted that there was an attempt to unlawfully arrest - and there is just nothing (yet) to indicate that.

Or - would someone explain how and why my line of reasoning is not accurate?

stay safe.
 

OC for ME

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It is unlikely that we will learn anything other than the cop's side of the story for the why. His along with any witness accounts for the what, when, and how are likely already known.

So, learning anything more than what we already know, beyond the cop's version, is a case study and not a journey for the truth, let alone justice.
 

roscoe13

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What reasonable, responsible person purports to leave or attempts to drive away from a seizure/detention?

What reasonable person WOULDN'T attempt to drive away if they feared for their life. We don't know that's the case, but we certainly don't know that it's not either.

I've come to expect better than that from you Grape, you've left me disappointed....

Roscoe
 

DocWalker

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What reasonable, responsible person purports to leave or attempts to drive away from a seizure/detention? Seems to me that virtually 100% of the time we say to not engage in street court and after objection, stating that you are cooperating under duress or remain silent, follow through from the safety/comfort of your home or office. There was no "necessity" to her actions; she wasn't "forced" to make those decisions or respond the way she did - she chose to do so. Seriously bad judgement IMO and a situation that went from unpleasant to very bad because of it.

No one needs to tell me she was afraid - I get it, she probably was. Also don't need to be reminded that they officer reached into her vehicle - I get that too.

I don't particularly like the feeling I have developed regarding the officer nor I am particularly proud of her reactions, but I shall base my conclusions on the law as I understand it. There will be much to learn at the trial I think.

Is there a word for guilty by innuendo and assumption?


When you are affraid for your life all rational thought goes out the window. If I have a cop "illegaly" threaten to kill me I might resist and protect my life and deal with it after. It is obvious that her "fight or flight" kicked in and she ran as it was her only option other than give up and be killed. Just because someone wears a badge doesn't make them a good guy. A lot of criminals have and do wear badges and if you think for a second people haven't been killed by bad cops than your living in the land of OZ or a like place.

This cop will get his day in court unlike the lady, this is our system even though sometimes it sucks. Even if he isn't found guilty I hope he never wears a badge again.
 

Grapeshot

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What reasonable person WOULDN'T attempt to drive away if they feared for their life. We don't know that's the case, but we certainly don't know that it's not either.

I've come to expect better than that from you Grape, you've left me disappointed....

Roscoe

Your right, we don't know either way do we. So why I'm I criticized for reserving judgement? I'm surprised that disappointment is even a consideration.

Please, please tell me how being asked for their license puts anyone in fear for their life (which is an assumption in itself).

I will not be swayed by the opinions of others w/o integrating them into my standards. Exchange of thoughts, opinions and ideas is the meat n' potatoes of this forum. Would you have me agree to simply get along? Does my character seem that weak that I might be influenced in that manner? I am embarrassed if that is what I project.

I assure you that my sincerity is not for let nor is my integrity.
 
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