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No CPL: Adjoining parking lots with business that has Liquor License.

fozzy71

fozzy71

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I didn't want to derail the experiences thread any more than I already had.

If I do not have my CPL and go to an OC friendly store at a shopping center, but a few hundred feet away in the same shopping center is another business with a liquor license, would I technically be breaking the law when in the parking lot?
 
B

Bikenut

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fozzy71 said:
I didn't want to derail the experiences thread any more than I already had.

If I do not have my CPL and go to an OC friendly store at a shopping center, but a few hundred feet away in the same shopping center is another business with a liquor license, would I technically be breaking the law when in the parking lot?
Click to expand...
I have no legal basis to back this up so it is merely my gut reaction opinion.......

I suspect that it would take a court case to settle that question.
 
A

autosurgeon

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PDinDetroit said:

(3) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o
Click to expand...

Wrong statute as he has NO cpl.

I think you are fine as long as you stay far away from the place with the liquor license. I would be interested to know who owns the parking lot however? If the store in question does not then likely a certain number of spaces go with the lease... but I doubt the whole parking lot does.

Research is in order to be sure.
 
fozzy71

fozzy71

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I get my CPL next Friday if all goes well, so it is more just for my own (and the communities) knowledge at this point.

Red square = Save-A-Lot

Red Ellipse = Kroger

savealot.png
 
A

autosurgeon

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Can you do a plat search and see who owns what? Your county should have it on their website and you can look and see who owns what parcels. Then if you can figure a way into save a lots parking lot that does not cross the licensed parcels...
 
PDinDetroit

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There is no reference to Parking Areas being OK to non-cpl holders in the applicable law: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-234d

However a judge MAY RULE that, since the Parking Areas were clearly called-out in the CPL PFZs as not being being part of the PFZ, Parking Areas would not be part of the "PFZs" listed in 750.234d. Although, this makes way too much sense and MAY NOT be ruled that way.

CPL PFZs: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425o

IANAL!
 
stainless1911

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The only PFZ parking lot exception that I know of applies to CPL holders who are CC on a school parking lot. Non CPL holders defer to 234d, and there is no parking lot exemption there, the wording is premises, which IMO is everywhere except the sidewalk, if any.
 
stainless1911

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234d does allow for carry with permission however.

On that note, what do you guys think about this. It would likely be easier to get permission to keep the gun in the car, (if you ask they probably wont let you OC), but I think that this would not cover you under the transport law.
 
eastmeyers

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I'm not a lawyer but I don't think it should count againt you. Thank of it from this side of the coin...
You cannot drink in a bar parking lot (unless it is fenced off, and limited), you cannot buy beer in a store parking lot (even when they have "parking lot sales"). So the parking lot is not zoned for liquor so I don't see it being a PFZ.
just my $0.02
 
stainless1911

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Without a CPL, it is. IMO, if the buisiness has a liquor license, then the parking lot, being part of the premises they own/rent/lease then 234d applies.

Park next door, thats what I do.



750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
Sec. 234d.


(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:


(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.


(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
 
Bronson

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750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.


Sec. 234d.


(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:


(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.


2) This section does not apply to any of the following:


c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
Click to expand...


Since "premises" isn't defined in the statute or referenced to another MCL where it is defined a dictionary definition would be used.

Dictionary.com defines it as:
a. a tract of land including its buildings.
b. a building together with its grounds or other appurtenances.
Click to expand...

Business Dictionary.com:
2. A building or facility, including the fenced or walled (or demarcated or segregated) space surrounding it.
Click to expand...

Merriam-Webster's online dictionary:
a : a tract of land with the buildings thereon b : a building or part of a building usually with its appurtenances (as grounds)
Click to expand...


So unfortunately eastmyers it looks like it includes all grounds belonging to the licensed business including the parking lots.

Bronson
 
eastmeyers

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Bronson

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eastmeyers said:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/CPL_Quick_Reference_Card_-_01-07_revision_284262_7.pdf
It says CPL holders shall not carry in these places (concealed at least), doesn't say non-CPL holders can't carry in the parking lots, also its almost four am. :shocker:
Click to expand...

I didn't even look at it. C'mon, you know better than to post somebody else's interpretation of the law instead of the law itself.

750.234d clearly states that it is unlawful to possess a firearm on the PREMISES of the listed places and gives an exemption to those licensed to carry a concealed pistol. No license = no exemption which means that without a license to conceal you cannot carry anywhere on the property that is owned/leased by any of the entities listed in .234d, including a business licensed to sell alcohol.

ETA: Ok, I've looked at it and it has nothing to do with possession of a firearm without a CPL so it isn't germane to this discussion.

Bronson
 
Last edited:
fozzy71

fozzy71

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Just so I am clear on something, now that I have my CPL: It is not illegal for me to buy beer at kroger or stop in a party store for a liquor bottle, is it? I can possess it and transport it but I can not be drunk, right?

This next one will likely never happen, but I am curious: If I were to be drunk, riding in a car as a passenger, the gun should be unloaded/cased/locked, in the trunk of the vehicle?
 
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