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You are kidding could this be true?

oak1971

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Reciprocity is for CC permits, not for "keep and bear." That is reality. Unless a person lives in, or travels to a state that outlaws OC, "reciprocity" is not a 2A issue. Unless concealed carry becomes an unlicensed mode of "keep and bear" someday.

Let me clarify the intent of my post: Permits, reciprocity, and the like all violate the 2A and are unconstitutional. We don't need them as all we do need is contained in the founding documents, which people refuse to read and take at their word.
 

protias

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We already have national reciprocity in the 2nd amendment. If the dumbarse Supreme Court would just rule that it applies to all states, which it does, we would not need another law. Putting the feds in charge of your carry rights is dangerous.

Better yet would be to rule it to each individual since it is "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms," and "shall not be infringed."
 

wrightme

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Let me clarify the intent of my post: Permits, reciprocity, and the like all violate the 2A and are unconstitutional. We don't need them as all we do need is contained in the founding documents, which people refuse to read and take at their word.

I understood your meaning.

But, the current AND past view of this specific does deny CC as a valid lawful "bear arms" absent such permission slip. Pressing FOR it is not the same as pressing FOR the RKBA. You may not LIKE hearing that, but that IS the reality. History, AND SCOTUS are in sync with that. I would challenge you to find ANY reference from the founders era that advocates concealment as a protected method of "bear."


For the record, I am FOR constitutional carry. But, history does not agree with me.
 

oak1971

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I understood your meaning.

But, the current AND past view of this specific does deny CC as a valid lawful "bear arms" absent such permission slip. Pressing FOR it is not the same as pressing FOR the RKBA. You may not LIKE hearing that, but that IS the reality. History, AND SCOTUS are in sync with that. I would challenge you to find ANY reference from the founders era that advocates concealment as a protected method of "bear."


For the record, I am FOR constitutional carry. But, history does not agree with me.

Omission of the method of carry does not constitute a preference for or against any method of carry. The method is irrelevant. All men are endowed (given the right) by God to keep and bear (carry) in any way they please. This involves a concept known as freedom, perhaps you have heard about it.
 

wrightme

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Omission of the method of carry does not constitute a preference for or against any method of carry. The method is irrelevant. All men are endowed (given the right) by God to keep and bear (carry) in any way they please. This involves a concept known as freedom, perhaps you have heard about it.

I didn't mention a preference for or against any method, other than that I am FOR Constitutional Carry. I mentioned the actual history and current SCOTUS rulings about it. You are attempting to state that reality is something other than the current (and historical) reality.
 

oak1971

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I didn't mention a preference for or against any method, other than that I am FOR Constitutional Carry. I mentioned the actual history and current SCOTUS rulings about it. You are attempting to state that reality is something other than the current (and historical) reality.

"We find these truths to be self evident". The founding principles as stated in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution and the Bill of Rights need no judicial interpretation. Plainly written and plainly understood to all but those who have willfully blinded themselves and who will willingly take on the yoke of tyranny for the sake of security.
 
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wrightme

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"We find these truths to be self evident". The founding principles as stated in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution need no judicial interpretation. Plainly written and plainly understood to all but those who have willfully blinded themselves and who will willingly take on the yoke of tyranny for the sake of security.

"That all men are created equal...."


Yet that did not apply to slaves when it was written. And, when it came up to SCOTUS, they interpreted the plainly written text as it was written WHEN it was written. Thus, the 14th amendment, right?


And, if the words in the Constitution and BoR "need no judicial interpretation," we would never see the SCOTUS actually doing such, would we.
 
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apjonas

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Why Do Some People Want to Humiliate Themselves in Public?

"We find these truths to be self evident" and "That all men are created equal...." are NOT in the constitution.
 

wrightme

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"We find these truths to be self evident" and "That all men are created equal...." are NOT in the constitution.

Good point. But, I do not see that as worthy of calling out as "humiliate themselves." Are you always that rude?


And seriously, did either he or I claim those words were in the Constitution?
 
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apjonas

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Well...

Good point. But, I do not see that as worthy of calling out as "humiliate themselves." Are you always that rude?

Pretty much...at least on some matters. I admit that this continued stupidity of calling for federal level forced reciprocity got me in a grumpy mood. Federalizing every little whim and using the court system to get what you want is what the left does. You can try and do the same but they're a lot better at it...you will lose in the end. Whatever benefit one may think such a trend provides, once states are turned in nothing more than local offices of Washington, any ability to carry will slowly be whittled away and there won't be anybody to cry to. Perhaps you are smarter than the founding fathers. Perhaps they got it wrong. But the constitution that you (mis-)quote will be a dead letter if the country gets accustomed to D.C. being the only government. Sorry if I offended you (or anybody else). But this is important and we can't afford to be sloppy in word, thought or deed.

And seriously, did either he or I claim those words were in the Constitution?

I think THAT is "self-evident."
 

wrightme

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Pretty much...at least on some matters.
Even when falsely claiming that someone failed to cite a correct document, when a document was not cited?

YOu should note that I have NOT supported this reciprocity bill, and I have supported reducing regulations, AND decriminalizing cc, AND going to Constitutional Carry.
But, I accurately point out that history has NOT spoken FOR concealed carry as a valid Right exercise. That isn't what I like, or prefer, but it IS reality.




apjonas said:
I admit that this continued stupidity of calling for federal level forced reciprocity got me in a grumpy mood. Federalizing every little whim and using the court system to get what you want is what the left does. You can try and do the same but they're a lot better at it...you will lose in the end. Whatever benefit one may think such a trend provides, once states are turned in nothing more than local offices of Washington, any ability to carry will slowly be whittled away and there won't be anybody to cry to. Perhaps you are smarter than the founding fathers. Perhaps they got it wrong.
apjonas said:
But the constitution that you (mis-)quote will be a dead letter if the country gets accustomed to D.C. being the only government. Sorry if I offended you (or anybody else). But this is important and we can't afford to be sloppy in word, thought or deed.
Speaking of sloppy, where do you feel that I have misquoted the constitution? I simply finished his quoted passage, which he didn't attribute to the constitution either.

I think your "grumpy mood" is in the way of your accuracy.

apjonas said:
I think THAT is "self-evident."
 

Captain Nemo

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As the social enviroment changes unfortunately the constitution must be judicially modified. At the time the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written "all men" applied only to white males of voting age. Negroes, American indians and women had no recognized rights. In the mid 1840's it was attempted to extend the prohibition of rights to Irish and Chinese.

cite: Battle Cry of freedom by James McPherson. Read it. It will open your eyes, especially about the real reason for the Civil War.

The Constitution was signed in Philedelphia on Sept 17, 1787. Tomorrow it will be exactly 224 years old. Let's hope it can endure another 224.
 
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oak1971

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"We find these truths to be self evident" and "That all men are created equal...." are NOT in the constitution.

I spoke of the founding principles in general, from which, specifically the Declaration of Independence, I paraphrased. I will add the Declaration. Pardon the lack of capitalization as I am posting from my droid.
 
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oak1971

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As the social enviroment changes unfortunately the constitution must be judicially modified. At the time the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written "all men" applied only to white males of voting age. Negroes, American indians and women had no recognized rights. In the mid 1840's it was attempted to extend the prohibition of rights to Irish and Chinese.

cite: Battle Cry of freedom by James McPherson. Read it. It will open your eyes, especially about the real reason for the Civil War.

The Constitution was signed in Philedelphia on Sept 17, 1787. Tomorrow it will be exactly 224 years old. Let's hope it can endure another 224.


You have misinterpreted the the 3/5ths clause as many have over the years. It was designed to deny slave holding states power in the legislature in order to encourage them to give up slavery. Read Fredrick Douglas and his account of rediscovering the real intent of the 3/5ths clause.

Do not tamper with the Constitution lightly or you will upset the delicate balance of powers set up by the founders. If you have read some of their writings as I have, you would know that they anticipated many of today's problems as a result of meddling with and circumventing the system of checks and balances. They studied all of the forms of government that had come before and the reasons they failed. Never before or since has a more perfectly balanced system of government been established. The only imperfect elements are that humans who are flawed by nature have the task of administering it. It should be noted that if the founders made any glaring error, it would be that they placed too much faith in us.

All the tragedies you have cited are the results of men who decided to tamper with and circumvent all the protections implicit in our system of government as originally planned.
 
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Brass Magnet

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Apr 23, 2009
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I think the real question concerning this legislation is........

Whether or not the congress has the power to enforce Aritcle IV section 2 of the Constitution.

We can all agree, I think, that most of theh legislation passed under the judicially expanded commerce clause is a major usurpation of power which is why I don't like that angle.

As for the power to enforce IV sec. 2, I don't think that they have it. Besides, there is a much more direct route in codifying the 14A which is also brought up in the "findings" of this bill. I think that's the angle that should be concentrated upon.

The Declaration of Independance may not have legal force behind it but it is looked upon, along with many other founding era documents, as a guide in interpreting the intent of the Constitution and BoR so it is definitely valid in the conversation. In reading the Declaration and the other documents I believe that incorporating the BoR was surely the correct thing to do. If the states abridge a citizens rights, it gives him/her a way to fight it. If governments are instituted among men to secure unalienable rights, there must be power with which to enforce that if nothing else.

The enforcement of peoples real and actual rights; eg. any rights that don't abridge the equal rights of others, should not be inherrently dangerous to liberty. In fact, the opposite should be true in that it is the very reason for government to exist in the first place. In that light, this bill should be very short and simple. It should really just enforce true 2A constitutional carry. Instead of this poor excuse for a bill, the congress should one-up the courts and just do it. "All citizens; their rights, privileges and imunities gauranteed under the 9th amendment and 14th amendment of the Constitution of the United States, have the right; and may carry and bear arms, in the manner of their choosing in any place they have the right to be." Plain, simple and easy to understand.

Take that SCotUS!
 
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Captain Nemo

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Some of the rhetoric on this thread and other threads on the subject doesn't make sense. Many members advocate getting UT and FL permits because it gives a person the privilege to carry a concealed weapon in the maximum number of states. Yet some of the same members now argue that national reciprocity is no good because it infringes on state's rights? Come on we can't have it both ways. Basically this would be no different than the nationl reciprocity of motor vehicle operating licenses. Think what it would be like if you could drive in Michigan with your Wisconsin operator's license but not in Minnesota.
 

apjonas

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Right for the Wrong Reason

Some of the rhetoric on this thread and other threads on the subject doesn't make sense. Many members advocate getting UT and FL permits because it gives a person the privilege to carry a concealed weapon in the maximum number of states. Yet some of the same members now argue that national reciprocity is no good because it infringes on state's rights? Come on we can't have it both ways. Basically this would be no different than the nationl reciprocity of motor vehicle operating licenses. Think what it would be like if you could drive in Michigan with your Wisconsin operator's license but not in Minnesota.

The "rhetoric" makes perfect sense. Carry reciprocity among states is analogous to the driver's license situation. Both are done by agreement (either state to state or multistate) not fiat from the federal government. The fact that you can get to someplace by two (or more) different paths does not mean that the paths are equally valid or desirable.
 

IA_farmboy

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Testifying before Congress on Tuesday, Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey told the story of Marqus Hill, a man whose Pennsylvania gun permit was revoked after he was charged with attempted murder.

One should make note that the person was CHARGED with attempted murder, not convicted. I find removing the right of self defense without the benefit of counsel, trial by court of law, with a jury of peers, and without the benefit of facing their accuser, to be a violation of just about every foundational element of a free nation. The reason this person, having been ACCUSED of attempted murder, was able to obtain a Florida permit was because Philadelphia had failed to place this person on probation, summon the person to court, place the person in custody, or put anything else in public record to indicate to the licensing authority in Florida that this person was prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Last time I checked an arrest or charge of any crime is insufficient grounds to prohibit a person from possessing a firearm. There must be a conviction or restraining order.

All of this is a red herring. Philadelphia decided they could not be inconvenienced with actually following through with this charge of attempted murder. They dropped the ball and allowed the accused to go free. Without a proper trial this person should be allowed to retain all rights of a free person. If this person that was charged with attempted murder was someone that should not have been allowed to possess a firearm then this person should have been placed in prison. The law of Florida, and Pennsylvania, do not make a charge of a crime as a prohibiting condition. The city of Philadelphia violated the law by invalidating this man's permit and then they have the nerve to get upset when Florida follows their own laws, and the laws of the federal government.
 
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