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would u find this guy guilty knowing it would be a 30+yr sentence - Poll it !

Would you find him guilty ?


  • Total voters
    12

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
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Fairfax Co., VA
Jury nullification.* Not guilty.

Then demand restitution, and genuine assistance for the offender. Not prison time. Obviously, prison/jail didn't work the first time.




*The ancient right of a jury to determine the justness of the law, too. If you read just the first section of Lysander Spooner's essay Trial by Jury (1840?), you will know more about the function of juries than 95% of Americans. Really. Its that simple. Just google the essay, read Section I, and you're way ahead of most people. It takes less than ten minutes to read Section I.
 

utbagpiper

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Utah
It seems shorter jail terms have not corrected his behavior and he continues to steal from innocent victims. And a pocketful of candy bars doesn't suggest he is feeding a starving child at home, but rather that he simply doesn't respect others' private property.

He did the crime, he can do the time on this; though I'd prefer the sentence include sufficient labor that he pays his own way rather than simply continuing to be a parasite on the hind side of humanity.

Frankly, I'm tired of so-called "petty" thieves being allowed to continue engaging in crime because the penalty never seems to be enough to dissuade them.

And maybe, the sentence prevents him from escalating to using grave violence when someone tries to prevent him from stealing their property. Do you think home invaders start with invading occupied homes? Or do many of them start with shop lifting and smash and grabs from unattended cars? This one got caught enough times to warrant a severe penalty. Impose it. Maybe he can behave well enough in prison to get some credit for good behavior.

Charles
 
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solus

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here nc
train him, find housing for him, put him to work, but do not send him to jail, especially since that is where he wants to go as he is comfortable, clothed, fed, as well as medically treated better than the vets.

quote: Not many issues can unite Democrats and Republicans. But criminal justice reform is one of them. After 30 years of being Tough on Crime in the U.S., no other nation incarcerates more of its citizens than we do. We have five percent of the world's population, but 25 percent of its prisoners. The cost of housing all those inmates: $80 billion a year. unquote.

60 minutes did a segment last sunday...quite interesting.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-germany-prisons-crime-and-punishment/

ipse
 

utbagpiper

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no other nation incarcerates more of its citizens than we do. We have five percent of the world's population, but 25 percent of its prisoners. The cost of housing all those inmates: $80 billion a year. unquote.

And the cost of letting them roam free in civilized society? What is an innocent human life worth? My local news recently carried the story of 4 men arrested for raping a 9 year old girl while her mother was busy smoking meth. Ya figure this was the first offense for these predators?

Perhaps not merely coincidentally, we've seen a dramatic decrease in violent crime in this nation over the last 20 years as we've gotten tough on crime. Why did we get tough on crime? Because bleeding heart liberal policies of treating criminals with kid gloves might have had something to do with the massive spike in violent crime starting in the late 60s and peaking in the mid-90s.

I presume we all carry guns to defend ourselves knowing that sick and twisted violent animals roam among us. I'd far prefer they get a fair trial and appropriate jail sentence than that I ever have to defend myself with deadly force against someone with a long and escalating criminal history.

Charles
 

Citizen

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And the cost of letting them roam free in civilized society? What is an innocent human life worth? My local news recently carried the story of 4 men arrested for raping a 9 year old girl while her mother was busy smoking meth. Ya figure this was the first offense for these predators?

Perhaps not merely coincidentally, we've seen a dramatic decrease in violent crime in this nation over the last 20 years as we've gotten tough on crime. Why did we get tough on crime? Because bleeding heart liberal policies of treating criminals with kid gloves might have had something to do with the massive spike in violent crime starting in the late 60s and peaking in the mid-90s.

I presume we all carry guns to defend ourselves knowing that sick and twisted violent animals roam among us. I'd far prefer they get a fair trial and appropriate jail sentence than that I ever have to defend myself with deadly force against someone with a long and escalating criminal history.

Charles


How on God's green Earth did you equate a repeat shoplifter with a rapist of 9-year olds?
 

solus

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here nc
How on God's green Earth did you equate a repeat shoplifter with a rapist of 9-year olds?

the mate's way...

sad part his query would have been answered before he posted if he had only taken a few minutes and viewed the 60 minutes segment...sigh

ipse
 

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
Sounds like he has a compulsion ... its not terrible ... $500 total (if you believe his lawyer) over his current lifetime .... just a minor mental issue.
 

Citizen

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Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Sounds like he has a compulsion ... its not terrible ... $500 total (if you believe his lawyer) over his current lifetime .... just a minor mental issue.

Interesting thread. I'm glad you started it.

It prompts the question, "What is the approach to the correct solution?"

Of course, we'll get all the emotional, knee-jerk "solutions" (and have already gotten one).

But, really, how would a genuinely humane society concerned about both the rights of the victim and the human-ness of the perpetrator go about creating a policy or procedure that addressed all concerns? That is to say, what would be that point wherein all interests coincide?
 

solus

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here nc
Interesting thread. I'm glad you started it.

It prompts the question, "What is the approach to the correct solution?"

Of course, we'll get all the emotional, knee-jerk "solutions" (and have already gotten one).

But, really, how would a genuinely humane society concerned about both the rights of the victim and the human-ness of the perpetrator go about creating a policy or procedure that addressed all concerns? That is to say, what would be that point wherein all interests coincide?

some how this society has to correct its mentality about its perception of and need for prisons isn't working...

some prisons are doubling up in solitary with devastating results. NPR's article on Doubling Up Prisoners In 'Solitary' Creates Deadly Consequences http://www.npr.org/2016/03/24/47082...oners-in-solitary-creates-deadly-consequences

a correct solution citizen...the problem was built over decades...and won't be fixed overnight especially since it is a 80B industry in this society and IMHO that would be the first place to break...
ipse
 

utbagpiper

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Utah
How ... did you equate a repeat shoplifter with a rapist of 9-year olds?

Ignoring the needless blasphemous use of the Lord's name, I made no such equation. How can any honest man make any attempt to claim I did? I ask you to either post the citation and quotes where I equated any shoplifter with a rapist, or to frankly apologize for bearing false witness.

What any honest, mature man with adult level reading comprehension can see, is that I responded to solus' post about how terrible it is we have a high incarceration rate with an example of some animals who desperately need to be incarcerated.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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But, really, how would a genuinely humane society concerned about both the rights of the victim and the human-ness of the perpetrator go about creating a policy or procedure that addressed all concerns? That is to say, what would be that point wherein all interests coincide?

Great question. I note that the Swiss impose what we would consider to be very lenient sentences, but then quickly reintegrate the offender back into his community once he is released. No lifetime scarlet letters it seems.

Of course, they seem to have communities into which to reintegrate offenders. I'm not sure we do anymore. At least not for the majority of the population living in urban and even suburban areas.

We tried the kid glove approach of short or no sentences that the bleeding heart liberals told us would solve the problems of crime and recidivism. It didn't work and gave rise to the horrific violence of the 70s, 80s, and 90s that lead to the get tough approach that is now under attack.


It is said that taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society. I suspect you might agree with me that in many cases, taxes are the price we pay for a lack of civilization in society. If individuals voluntarily took care of each other, and paid their own way for the services they use, taxes could be dramatically reduced. Incarceration is similar. It is the price we pay for not having a civilized society where children are taught respect at an early age in the home and church, and where that respect is required in the classroom. Every crime against another has at its roots a lack of respect for the victim: his property rights, his person, his dignity.

I think the real key is to have a society where crime is rare because we have engendered respect for others' rights. But that has been tough to do since the liberals took over the education system and the courts expelled the Judeo/Christian God from the classroom.

In theory, we could teach respect for rights from a purely secular/humanist (which is no less a religion than Christianity, but that is another discussion) point of view. In practice, something about God and eternal judgment seems to assist in teaching respect for others' rights.

A child of 6 or 8 who is caught stealing can be lovely taught why it is wrong, assisted to make restitution, and is likely to never steal again.

An adult in his 20s or 30s who has been convicted of multiple thefts and doubtless gotten away with heaven only knows how many others presents a rather difficult challenge.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Sounds like he has a compulsion ... its not terrible ... $500 total (if you believe his lawyer) over his current lifetime .... just a minor mental issue.

Invite him to hang out in your store then.

If multiple prior convictions with lessor penalties are not correcting his behavior, then he needs some stronger medicine. A real shame he chose not to seek out help before it came to this. You don't accidentally steal a pocketfull of goods from a store.

We are the most generous nation on earth when it comes to private donations to those in need.

There is no need to steal in this nation.

People need to stop stealing others' stuff.

Charles
 

color of law

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Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,936
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Does the punishment fit the crime? Three strikes you're out? Our system of punishment is screwed up. What is the root of the crime? I remember a program called Scared straight. Great TV, but it didn't work. It is just like those driver training films of auto accidents. They work for about a day.

The government and progressives wanted to take care of you from cradle to grave. Is it a wonder why Bernie Sanders is so popular. After the WWII we created the entitlement society. If I don't get what I believe I'm entitled to then I'll take it.

As long as morals is not part of the equation then an answer will not be forthcoming.
 
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