Close Call

R027 · Aug 4, 2013

I left to get some food at around 10 p.m last night. I pulled up to a red light at the end of my street, I was waiting to turn right onto the main road. I was behind a van at the light and a car pulled up behind me and I noticed the driver broke hard. The driver behind me then opened his door and walked towards me. In my driver's side mirror I saw a rifle in his left hand, and he exclaimed 'Yo son". Luckily I was already moving to turn right since the van turned at this point so I stomped the gas and got out of there quickly. Once home, I started thinking about a few things;

If I was stuck behind the van, and stuck there at the light (there was a car to my left, sidewalk to the right), nowhere to go, would shooting this guy be justifiable as he's walking towards me?

If I didn't drive away but could have, would it be justifiable if I shot him?

If I did shoot him, would it matter if his gun turned out to be a fake/a toy?

I'm just glad I was able to get out of there without using my gun.

Thanks for the replies and be safe.

davidmcbeth · Aug 4, 2013

Well my first question would be: are you a cop (lol - kidding)

Rifle beats handgun ... you were wise to move along.

Justifiable to shoot him? Maybe. I hope you got 100K for court to find out.

Its unknown what was in the guy's mind and I get the feeling that the entire story is not being disclosed which is probably for the best.

Where did this occur? Thunderdome, VA?

You just saved yourself 100K ... have a party and celebrate.

R027 · Aug 4, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
Well my first question would be: are you a cop (lol - kidding)

Rifle beats handgun ... you were wise to move along.

Justifiable to shoot him? Maybe. I hope you got 100K for court to find out.

Its unknown what was in the guy's mind and I get the feeling that the entire story is not being disclosed which is probably for the best.

Where did this occur? Thunderdome, VA?

You just saved yourself 100K ... have a party and celebrate.

Occurred in Woodbridge VA. And that's the whole story, no previous altercation with this person at all.

eye95 · Aug 4, 2013

R027 said:
I left to get some food at around 10 p.m last night. I pulled up to a red light at the end of my street, I was waiting to turn right onto the main road. I was behind a van at the light and a car pulled up behind me and I noticed the driver broke hard. The driver behind me then opened his door and walked towards me. In my driver's side mirror I saw a rifle in his left hand, and he exclaimed 'Yo son". Luckily I was already moving to turn right since the van turned at this point so I stomped the gas and got out of there quickly. Once home, I started thinking about a few things;

[1] If I was stuck behind the van, and stuck there at the light (there was a car to my left, sidewalk to the right), nowhere to go, would shooting this guy be justifiable as he's walking towards me?

[2] If I didn't drive away but could have, would it be justifiable if I shot him?

[3] If I did shoot him, would it matter if his gun turned out to be a fake/a toy?

I'm just glad I was able to get out of there without using my gun.

Thanks for the replies and be safe.

1. IMO, yes, if you reasonably believed yourself to be in mortal danger. I would have. IANAL.

2. Only if the answer to #1 is yes and your State has Stand Your Ground. IANAL.

3. Nope. What matters is what you reasonably believed. IANAL.

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x1wildone · Aug 4, 2013

I'm thinking that maybe he was trying to return your rifle to you, after it fell from the roof of your car.
Have you done an inventory?

Maverick9 · Aug 4, 2013

R027 said:
I left to get some food at around 10 p.m last night. I pulled up to a red light at the end of my street, I was waiting to turn right onto the main road. I was behind a van at the light and a car pulled up behind me and I noticed the driver broke hard. The driver behind me then opened his door and walked towards me. In my driver's side mirror I saw a rifle in his left hand, and he exclaimed 'Yo son".

There's got to be more to this story. But you're strapped into your seat, presumably, gun is holstered. You did the right thing tactically which was to escape the kill box. Doubt you could have unbelted, drawn, opened the door, gotten out, found a clear backstop and been able to stop this 'threat'. A rifle in the hand isn't necessarily an extreme threat.

Did he try to follow you? I'd be concerned if it was on 'your street' the guy might know who you are. Keep aware!

stealthyeliminator · Aug 4, 2013

Did you call the police after getting out of there? While peaceful open carry isn't one of them, I think there is a legitimate time to make a MWAG call.

As far as having a rifle in hand not being an extreme threat... That's not what you'd be told if YOU tried walking down the street with a rifle in hand, much less if you drove aggressively toward someone, got out rifle in hand, started walking toward them and called out to them in a confrontational manner. I don't know about the case law, but the opinion of law enforcement seems to fairly widely be that anything other than being slung on your back with a strap (not including strapped and on the front) is aggressive and threatening.

Maverick9 · Aug 4, 2013

By saying not an extreme threat I did not mean to imply no threat at all. If he wanted to shoot the guy he'd have done so from his car door.

I find the story highly improbable, and questionable. If the guy didn't call the police and give a description, then I'd say he's lying about some or all of it.

Citizen · Aug 4, 2013

Maverick9 said:
By saying not an extreme threat I did not mean to imply no threat at all. If he wanted to shoot the guy he'd have done so from his car door.

I find the story highly improbable, and questionable. If the guy didn't call the police and give a description, then I'd say he's lying about some or all of it.

Possibly. Stranger things have happened.

On OCDO, we have a long tradition of discussing reports as if true, taking the information at face-value and discussing it so we can share tactical ideas, legal points, and so forth.

For the sake of discussion, lets say the OPer is giving the complete truth. My first guess would be mistaken identity. That is to say, the OPers car is pretty close in appearance to the actual car the other driver was attempting to contact.

For the OPer,

When he said, "Yo son", what tone of voice did he use?

Grapeshot · Aug 4, 2013

Citizen said:
Possibly. Stranger things have happened.

On OCDO, we have a long tradition of discussing reports as if true, taking the information at face-value and discussing it so we can share tactical ideas, legal points, and so forth.

For the sake of discussion, lets say the OPer is giving the complete truth. My first guess would be mistaken identity. That is to say, the OPers car is pretty close in appearance to the actual car the other driver was attempting to contact.

For the OPer,

When he said, "Yo son", what tone of voice did he use?

Not necessarily so - we have a long tradition of "trust but confirm" and if it smells funny it will also probably taste funny.

A fair number of posts not dissimilar to this have turned out to be fairy tails - a nice way of saying untruths.

WalkingWolf · Aug 4, 2013

It's dark, headlights are shining on your car from behind, and the OP manages to see a rifle? Better vision than mine.

If the story is static then escape is always a better option if available.

Citizen · Aug 4, 2013

Grapeshot said:
Not necessarily so - we have a long tradition of "trust but confirm" and if it smells funny it will also probably taste funny.

A fair number of posts not dissimilar to this have turned out to be fairy tails - a nice way of saying untruths.

If you don't start, I won't. You know my level of patience with you; and you know my skill at debate. I'm going to make one comment below, and then I expect you to drop it.

By saying we have a long tradition of discussing as though true, I did not in any way say that others closed their eyes or failed to question the posters' credibility, nor that none would try to confirm the story. To say, or even imply, such would require an absurd misunderstanding of human nature. While you might like to add something to my "discuss as though true" comments to fill out the perspective, you blew it with the contradictory comment bolded above.

Grapeshot · Aug 4, 2013

Citizen said:
If you don't start, I won't. You know my level of patience with you; and you know my skill at debate. I'm going to make one comment below, and then I expect you to drop it.

By saying we have a long tradition of discussing as though true, I did not in any way say that others closed their eyes or failed to question the posters' credibility, nor that none would try to confirm the story. To say, or even imply, such would require an absurd misunderstanding of human nature. While you might like to add something to my "discuss as though true" comments to fill out the perspective, you blew it with the contradictory comment bolded above.

You vely funny GI :lol:

davidmcbeth · Aug 4, 2013

R027 said:
Occurred in Woodbridge VA. And that's the whole story, no previous altercation with this person at all.

No reason why the guy was trying to get your attention? Hey, maybe he was French and going to example his dropping of rifle technique.

R027 · Aug 4, 2013

x1wildone said:
I'm thinking that maybe he was trying to return your rifle to you, after it fell from the roof of your car.
Have you done an inventory?

:lol:

Maverick9 said:
There's got to be more to this story. But you're strapped into your seat, presumably, gun is holstered. You did the right thing tactically which was to escape the kill box. Doubt you could have unbelted, drawn, opened the door, gotten out, found a clear backstop and been able to stop this 'threat'. A rifle in the hand isn't necessarily an extreme threat.

Did he try to follow you? I'd be concerned if it was on 'your street' the guy might know who you are. Keep aware!

That's the entire story, luckily he did not try to follow me. I'm thinking its random, I know no one who looks like this guy. Also no car was behind me beforehand, his car showed up after I arrived at the light. I definitely will pay more attention to the rear view and cars around me while I'm stopped at a light..

stealthyeliminator said:
Did you call the police after getting out of there? While peaceful open carry isn't one of them, I think there is a legitimate time to make a MWAG call.

As far as having a rifle in hand not being an extreme threat... That's not what you'd be told if YOU tried walking down the street with a rifle in hand, much less if you drove aggressively toward someone, got out rifle in hand, started walking toward them and called out to them in a confrontational manner. I don't know about the case law, but the opinion of law enforcement seems to fairly widely be that anything other than being slung on your back with a strap (not including strapped and on the front) is aggressive and threatening.

I did call police but unfortunately didn't have much of a description of the guy or the car. But I was worried for the other car beside me turning left, who would still be stopped at the red light after I drove off. And this definitely wasn't on a strap, this was in his hands, ready for use.

Citizen said:
Possibly. Stranger things have happened.

On OCDO, we have a long tradition of discussing reports as if true, taking the information at face-value and discussing it so we can share tactical ideas, legal points, and so forth.

For the sake of discussion, lets say the OPer is giving the complete truth. My first guess would be mistaken identity. That is to say, the OPers car is pretty close in appearance to the actual car the other driver was attempting to contact.

For the OPer,

When he said, "Yo son", what tone of voice did he use?

Aggressive tone

WalkingWolf said:
It's dark, headlights are shining on your car from behind, and the OP manages to see a rifle? Better vision than mine.

If the story is static then escape is always a better option if available.

His car headlights weren't shining on my driver side mirror, he was so close to my car that my car blocked his lights from shining the side mirrors. Driver side mirror was slightly tilted down. I was able to see his right hand on the heat shield?, that is as much of the gun I saw before I drove away.

davidmcbeth said:
No reason why the guy was trying to get your attention? Hey, maybe he was French and going to example his dropping of rifle technique.

:lol:

Citizen · Aug 4, 2013

Grapeshot said:
You vely funny GI :lol:

Thank you for proving you're incapable of letting it go. And, must respond with a childish non-sequitur intended to be insulting.

Rhetorical question: are you going to give us more examples of how you'll go to great lengths to prove yourself right? Up to and including deleting posts and locking threads?

I know. I'll pull one of your own tactics on you pre-emptively: You're going to detract from OCDO by continuing this argument. But, I won't. It makes the whole forum look bad when a moderator does it.

Grapeshot · Aug 4, 2013

Originally Posted by Grapeshot

You vely funny GI :lol:

Citizen said:
Thank you for proving you're incapable of letting it go. And, must respond with a childish non-sequitur intended to be insulting.

Rhetorical question: are you going to give us more examples of how you'll go to great lengths to prove yourself right? Up to and including deleting posts and locking threads?

I know. I'll pull one of your own tactics on you pre-emptively: You're going to detract from OCDO by continuing this argument. But, I won't. It makes the whole forum look bad when a moderator does it.

Think it is pretty clear that I was being derisive in a kinder, gentler way to make a point.

The problem is obvious Citizen - you don't like moderation or rules that do not fit your interpretation of what you think they should be. Interestingly enough, it is not your call. Editing posts, deleting or locking threads are tools provided by the Administrator and are subject to his review.

Attacking a Moderator for doing his job is therefore akin to attacking/insulting the Administrator - good job. There is a way to properly report improper conduct of a Moderator and it is not publicly, but you have gone that route in the past (w/o success), so does it not surprise me when you repeat your past performance. You must realize what will happen next to continuance of OT posts, right?

E6chevron · Aug 5, 2013

If the van in front of you did not pull away...

The driver of a "boxed in" car is in a terrible tactical situation, with a rifle equipped unknown person advancing on the driver side from behind. You are not looking at good odds for you in a gunfight. Exiting the car makes it worse, turning on the interior lights of the car, giving the rifleman a better shot at you, and giving up the protection of the door. You don't even know yet, if there are more bad guys behind or in front you!

Unbuckling your seat belt, rolling down the driver side window, drawing your handgun and shooting at the aggressor while leaning out the window, would not be easy, and would definitely make you an easier target. That amount of time, could very well allow the rifleman to be standing next to the driver window and be shooting.

Here's what I would do. I would back up my car as far as I could, (which may not be far, if the headlights of the following car were already not visible). I would then cut the front wheels away from the curb and drive out of there, perhaps sacrificing some front fender to do so. Keep your head as low as possible while pulling out.

ccwinstructor · Aug 6, 2013

Mistaken Identity.. Happened to a friend many years ago in Wisconsin

Citizen said:
Possibly. Stranger things have happened.

On OCDO, we have a long tradition of discussing reports as if true, taking the information at face-value and discussing it so we can share tactical ideas, legal points, and so forth.

For the sake of discussion, lets say the OPer is giving the complete truth. My first guess would be mistaken identity. That is to say, the OPers car is pretty close in appearance to the actual car the other driver was attempting to contact.

For the OPer,

When he said, "Yo son", what tone of voice did he use?

A very similar thing happened to a friend in Wisconsin 35 years ago. He was in a parking lot with cars on either side, loading things into his car to go to the range. A car roared up, slamed on the brakes, blocking him in. Two men got out and started to approach him in a threatening manner. He displayed the .22 target pistol from the range box he was loading into the car. The men exclaimed: You bad MFer, retreated to the car, and roared off. He told us about it when he got to the range a few minutes later. No report to the police. Why would he risk the hastle?

autosurgeon · Aug 6, 2013

Because they can go to the police and say he threatened them for no reason. Happened to a friend in Wyoming.

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