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Hey guys, what's going on in this thread....

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
This is my handout to LEOs any time I am detained and the firearm issue is involved.

I split the document into two pages, since no action has been taken regarding the absurdly small upload size limit.

I align them back to back, fold up a corner, use glue stick, lay back down. Fold up the rest, glue stick, lay back down. Perfect. Get laminated.

The .pdf doesn't look so nice. I also included the .doc
 

Attachments

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  • LEO OC Handout P1.pdf
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  • LEO OC Handout P1.doc
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  • LEO OC Handout P2.doc
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Can you set it up as a .pdf and then post it as an attachment? Or use a link to some place where you have it stored as a text document of some sort?

Because cutting and pasting two pages of stuff is going to require way too many individual posts to be anything except anoying.

stay safe.
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Personal attack
 
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RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
oh the hypocrisy...
iaintevenmad.jpg
 
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ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
I dunno what got moderated... I fail to see how anyone could have a problem with this.

I tried .pdf, .doc, .rtf, and .odt. All are limited to such small sizes that I cannot upload it. I don't have it on any site or server... I agree this is annoying, but it's the art of the possible...

5k more and it'd work.
 
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Badger Johnson

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
1,213
Location
USA
Unfortunately some LEOs are going to get angry reading this. Uh, look at the education requirements, and that some people with too high IQs were rejected by departments. Yes good LE is a matter of being street smart - not sure how to get that. Some LEOs might be impressed favorably, but how do you encounter them?

The higher ups do not empower their rank and file, do not give them educational opportunities and treat them like dirt many times. It's no wonder they get testy with curb-side lawyer wanna-bees.

No LEO is going to read that during a traffic stop. They MIGHT glance at it if you are stopped on foot. Maybe you could use it as a reminder of what statutes to cite and verbally transmit it?

The content seems good, with statute numbers and stuff, but the opening line is pretty confrontational - remember he has a gun and might have just been pissed off by the guy he stopped prior to you. They are only human.
 

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
I dunno what got moderated... I fail to see how anyone could have a problem with this.

I tried .pdf, .doc, .rtf, and .odt. All are limited to such small sizes that I cannot upload it. I don't have it on any site or server... I agree this is annoying, but it's the art of the possible...

5k more and it'd work.

I copy pasted an exact quote from skidmark and changed the wording to match up with a .pdf application. Skidmark was offended by his own words when thrown back his way and reported it to a moderator. To make light of the situation I posted a picture of skidmark's profile and pointed out that he "has no friends." Nothing said was within the realm of "personal attack" in the forum rules and skidmark's "personal attack" remains untouched by moderators. Due to this, I can only assume that he receives special treatment on these boards. Apparently in today's society very few people have thick skin.

Whatev's
1298430582985.jpg


EDIT: oh yeah, THIS.
The content seems good, with statute numbers and stuff, but the opening line is pretty confrontational - remember he has a gun and might have just been pissed off by the guy he stopped prior to you. They are only human.
You kind of step of with the wrong foot using that first line. You may just meet a cop who is all for people carrying, but as soon as he reads that he is going to go on the defense.
 
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ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
I considered the first line carefully. I figured an LEO might wonder why I am handing him a laminated 8.5x11. The first line explains why. It isn't meant to be confrontational, but I can't please everyone... If a cop wants to have a chip on his shoulder, it won't matter, will it?
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
Skid has been through some hell and I respect him for staying the course. But I don't think the forum rules should be bent for him...

There is a lot of double-standard applied in the moderation here. I've experienced it on more than one occasion; not inclusive of those times when I knowingly broke the rules to drive the point...
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
Unfortunately some LEOs are going to get angry reading this. Uh, look at the education requirements, and that some people with too high IQs were rejected by departments. Yes good LE is a matter of being street smart - not sure how to get that. Some LEOs might be impressed favorably, but how do you encounter them?

The higher ups do not empower their rank and file, do not give them educational opportunities and treat them like dirt many times. It's no wonder they get testy with curb-side lawyer wanna-bees.

No LEO is going to read that during a traffic stop. They MIGHT glance at it if you are stopped on foot. Maybe you could use it as a reminder of what statutes to cite and verbally transmit it?

The content seems good, with statute numbers and stuff, but the opening line is pretty confrontational - remember he has a gun and might have just been pissed off by the guy he stopped prior to you. They are only human.

It's possible. The purpose is that I don't want to get into a verbal argument about what the LEO doesn't know. If he wants to be an Opinion Enforcement Officer, then HE made that choice when he put on the uniform. Nothing I do or say will change that.

If he's got a pre-existing bad attitude, is a bully, etc... and refuses to read it, his loss. I didn't make him into a dick...

I've been more than accommodating and given up my rights more times than I want to admit. I've spent hours arguing with dumbass cops that refused to do any research. It's pointless. I'm not going to force-feed them if they are going to argue about it. And for exactly the reasons you've mentioned. He is a grumpy dick and he has a gun and the power to lie about anything he wants to and get away with it. I'm trying to be helpful. If he doesn't want my help, fine.

I'm not doing it anymore. I'm handing him this:

If he gets an attitude; "I have nothing to say, why am I being detained?"

If he receives it well, awesome!

As with all my tactics, I'm designing this so that decent Cops won't have anything to worry about, and the dicks can walk into a sh!tstorm if they so choose. You can't 'bait' a decent cop, because a decent cop isn't interested in being a dick to begin with.
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
Unfortunately some LEOs are going to get angry reading this.

Some LEOs are going to get mad no matter what. Some LEOs are already mad. Some LEOs got into the job specifically because they're mad and want to take it out everyone they meet and get away with it...

I find many states, not just Florida, have had a policy of hiring specifically this kind of person for the job. They hand-pick the dumb and disturbed, because people like that further a Police State agenda without having to be told to do it. They'll take any excuse to abuse another human being, and want the security of knowing they can get away with it. I have more respect for the common thug, because the common thug is at least brave enough to take a risk. Cops like this are too cowardly to put anything on the line, they strike from the comfort of their diapers and security blanket.
 

Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
Some LEOs are going to get mad no matter what. Some LEOs are already mad. Some LEOs got into the job specifically because they're mad and want to take it out everyone they meet and get away with it...

I find many states, not just Florida, have had a policy of hiring specifically this kind of person for the job. They hand-pick the dumb and disturbed, because people like that further a Police State agenda without having to be told to do it. They'll take any excuse to abuse another human being, and want the security of knowing they can get away with it. I have more respect for the common thug, because the common thug is at least brave enough to take a risk. Cops like this are too cowardly to put anything on the line, they strike from the comfort of their diapers and security blanket.

+1

I wish Missouri had some sort of unified rule on open carry so that I could put together something like this, but nooo! Missouri has to let every locality place thair own rules on open carry and not be forced to post said rules anywhere but in some hard to obtain city code book where not even the mayor nor secretary known where the firearms codes are.
 

ADulay

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
512
Location
Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
All,

I was trying to stay out of this thread but I figured I may as well add my 2 cents worth for people to at least consider.

If you were a copper (I can call them that as that's what we called ourselves way back when) and somebody that you had just stopped, for whatever reason, hands you a pamphlet or sheet of paper and says "read this", I'd think I had somebody who really should be "monitored" a bit more closely.

First off, an LEO is NOT going to read that paper as it means he's going to have to take his eyes off of you to do so. Never a good thing on an initial stop.

Why not wait and see just what the stop is for?

If the conversation gets around to YOU and your weapon, then you can recite the relevant statutes as needed, in a polite and civil manner.

Being confrontational is not going to work, especially if you've run into a jerk. (Yes, they're out there, no doubt about it).

I been pulled over three times now while open carrying and all three times I came away with a "thank you, drive safely" exit from the stop.

Two of the stops had the officer knowing the statutes and wanted to make sure that was WHY I was open carrying as I was in normal civilian traffic and not at a fishing hole! The third one was aware of the fishing, hunting statute but not the "shooting range" paragraph that was further down the page.

All three stops were NON-CONFRONTATIONAL. I never said "Hey, you can't stop me!" or anything like that.

We're the stops "illegal" or not warranted? It's a tough call. You and I know the law, but when you look at it from the officer's side, he sees a guy with an openly carried gun and is "curious" about this in a strictly urban environment. Heck, I'd take the time to at least find out what the story is, if not for anything more than curiousity and my own edification!

Here's the amazing thing about this so far. None of the three stops had me produce any kind of identification! Evidently calling in the license plate was sufficient to satisfy whatever it is they were stopping me for.

So, let's try to think about WHY you're about to hand that laminated sheet to the officer. How about not doing it and just ask, "What's going on?" and take it from there.

The information on the sheets is correct and informative, but I don't think handing it out as the first line of defense in a stop is a good tactic.

With that said, this is only my own opinion. I still feel that handing reading material to the LEO who has just stopped you might be counter-productive to the intended result.

I open carry daily in my normal routine all around a three county area as I fish and shoot almost daily. I find it much more comfortable than IWB carry and can always throw on a light "cover garment" should I find the need to deviate from going to and from these activities.

AD
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
All,

I was trying to stay out of this thread but I figured I may as well add my 2 cents worth for people to at least consider.

I don't own this thread, why stay out of it?

If you were a copper (I can call them that as that's what we called ourselves way back when) and somebody that you had just stopped, for whatever reason, hands you a pamphlet or sheet of paper and says "read this", I'd think I had somebody who really should be "monitored" a bit more closely.

Knowing the law makes a person deserving of 'monitoring?'
Knowing the Bill of Rights makes a person deserving of 'monitoring?'
Having the courtesy of informing an officer that he has a chance to rise above the pack be not being a dick is deserving of 'monitoring?'
Having the courtesy to provide an officer with material he might not be aware of is deserving of 'monitoring?'

Please do explain.

First off, an LEO is NOT going to read that paper as it means he's going to have to take his eyes off of you to do so. Never a good thing on an initial stop.

Does anything in this thread or document say that the officer will be forced to read it whether he wants to or not?

Why not wait and see just what the stop is for?

Did I state the the reader must do as I do with this document? Edit it if you like. It's a handy and concise reference. Read it for your own edification and never show it to anyone. I don't care... You imply that I'm telling people what to do with themselves to fabricate an argument against that unmade statement... You planning to put boxing gloves on that strawman?

If the conversation gets around to YOU and your weapon, then you can recite the relevant statutes as needed, in a polite and civil manner.

Recite? We should all memorize SS 790 in it's entirety? Now who's trying to look like a wannabe lawyer/show-off?

Being confrontational is not going to work, especially if you've run into a jerk. (Yes, they're out there, no doubt about it).

Another strawman. There is nothing confrontational here. Implying that there is, is a lie. You can have that fight if you like, but you'll have it alone...

I been pulled over three times now while open carrying and all three times I came away with a "thank you, drive safely" exit from the stop.

Three, the convenient number... But I'll not pick nits. You do things your way. I never said you shouldn't...

Two of the stops had the officer knowing the statutes and wanted to make sure that was WHY I was open carrying as I was in normal civilian traffic and not at a fishing hole! The third one was aware of the fishing, hunting statute but not the "shooting range" paragraph that was further down the page.

It's the same as pulling someone over to check if they have a Driver's License. If you choose to waive your Rights, that's fine. I chose not to make that recommendation because I don't tell people what to do with themselves. I certainly don't tell people to toss the Constitution out the window. If that's what you want to do, fine. You do that. I lose respect for the person who tells others that they should throw away their Rights.

All three stops were NON-CONFRONTATIONAL. I never said "Hey, you can't stop me!" or anything like that.

Same here... I just draw a line of how much treason I'm willing to put up with. I never tell a cop he can't do something. If he wants to cross the line, far be it from me to stop him... don't tell people what to do. I expect them to conduct themselves properly, if they don't I'm not going to stop them from proving what scum they are. Actions speak louder than words, so let them be done.

We're the stops "illegal" or not warranted? It's a tough call.

No, it isn't. You were detained with no RAS or PC. You're fine with that. That's your choice.

You and I know the law, but when you look at it from the officer's side, he sees a guy with an openly carried gun and is "curious" about this in a strictly urban environment. Heck, I'd take the time to at least find out what the story is, if not for anything more than curiousity and my own edification!

Derp, that's the whole point! I'm willing to have a consensual conversation, but a pull-over is a detainment. If there is no RAS/PC for it, then it's a breach of the 4th Amendment. You decide if you're ok with that. I am not. He can follow me to my destination if he wants, but detainment for a non-criminal activity is unacceptable.

Here's the amazing thing about this so far. None of the three stops had me produce any kind of identification! Evidently calling in the license plate was sufficient to satisfy whatever it is they were stopping me for.

That doesn't seem like anything to brag about. But I won't go off-topic with the many issues here...

So, let's try to think about WHY you're about to hand that laminated sheet to the officer. How about not doing it and just ask, "What's going on?" and take it from there.

Why? Because I'm sick of trying to educate someone who tells me I'm 'lucky' he isn't killing me on sight. Taht anyone who owns a gun deserves to die, etc... The confrontation was not my doing. Get off your high horse, pretending that all LEO encounters that go badly are the victim's fault. You may as well claim that anyone who is raped was asking for it. Same mentality.

The information on the sheets is correct and informative, but I don't think handing it out as the first line of defense in a stop is a good tactic.

So don't. Did I say you had to? Roll it up and smoke it for all I care... I'm just trying to be helpful.

With that said, this is only my own opinion. I still feel that handing reading material to the LEO who has just stopped you might be counter-productive to the intended result.

If the topic comes up; it beats an argument and it's in writing. Nobody can claim 'he said, she said.' I don't think most of us have the time or insanity available to memorize 790 as you suggested. Even if we did, how authoritative is the memorized word? This tangible document can be taken back to his patrol car while he calls in for a Statute. When it comes back word-for-word identical, he knows he is dealing with someone who isn't making sh!t up. If he chooses to apply an attitude problem to it, that's on him.

I open carry daily in my normal routine all around a three county area as I fish and shoot almost daily. I find it much more comfortable than IWB carry and can always throw on a light "cover garment" should I find the need to deviate from going to and from these activities.

You stated yourself that you are one of the good ol' boys. You get special treatment if you want it or not. The rest of us aren't so lucky; we're not part of the thick, brown line. We don't get the special treatment that you do.

Remember this part?

If you were a copper (I can call them that as that's what we called ourselves way back when)

Here's the amazing thing about this so far. None of the three stops had me produce any kind of identification! Evidently calling in the license plate was sufficient to satisfy whatever it is they were stopping me for.

No correlation to being one of them... Nah, can't be...

Displaying to all that you are an 'only one' schmoozing it up with fellow 'only ones,' then pretending to wonder why nobody else gets the special treatment that you do, and implying that it must be the Citizen's fault when Cops come unhinged. Have you seen youtube? Search for "police brutality." You could waste the rest of your life looking at these examples... There is literally no end to the videos of Cops breaking the law, violating the Bill of Rights, attacking people, killing people... And these are just the times it was caught on video! I've been to the academy where this kind of thing is openly taught by the FDLE. Don't tell me what I've seen and heard with my own eyes and ears never happened. Having a house shot full of holes and then burned to the ground to cover it up wasn't something I imagined.

There is not a damn thing wrong with keeping a direct, arm's-length social policy with LEOs. They are known to kill on a whim. I don't get cozy with people like that. It's not confrontational. I just don't want a group of people known to commit over 1200% more violent crime than anyone else, and being a victim of the same many times, to get too close to me. I've never been a victim of a crime that WASN'T perpetrated by LEOs. And they got away with it.

So, we've got two completely opposite ends of the spectrum. One guy who is a cop and is friends with them and receives special treatment from them. And another who has had Cops try to kill him and his family on more than one occasion, yet never arrested or charged with anything... Hmm...

I doubt many readers on this forum can relate to the latter. Nor would I call it the norm. But being buddies with Cops, and being one yourself, is a skewed perspective, too. Those who fall 'somewhere in between' probably need more protection than a member of the club...
 
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j4l

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
1,835
Location
fl
I copy pasted an exact quote from skidmark and changed the wording to match up with a .pdf application. Skidmark was offended by his own words when thrown back his way and reported it to a moderator. To make light of the situation I posted a picture of skidmark's profile and pointed out that he "has no friends." Nothing said was within the realm of "personal attack" in the forum rules and skidmark's "personal attack" remains untouched by moderators. Due to this, I can only assume that he receives special treatment on these boards. Apparently in today's society very few people have thick skin.

Whatev's
1298430582985.jpg


EDIT: oh yeah, THIS.

You kind of step of with the wrong foot using that first line. You may just meet a cop who is all for people carrying, but as soon as he reads that he is going to go on the defense.


A sense of humor in this place is about as rare as common-sense...There are, indeed, a lot of folks waaaaaaaaaaaaay too thin-skinned to be scouring internet forums, much less to be carrying firearms, if they cant take a simple ribbing..
"personal attacks".....silliest concept I've ever heard of.. its a forum, people..text on a screen, on the internet...no harm can come from it. Slap a band-aid on your fragile little egos, and man the f-ck up, already..

That said, back to the topic.
Seems to me a reasonable enough item to have on-hand, if needed.And normally Im all over Ixtow for "confrontational" items, albiet usually in jest. I dont see anything especially confrontational with the 1st line of that...
 

ADulay

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
512
Location
Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
All,

I was trying to stay out of this thread but I figured I may as well add my 2 cents worth for people to at least consider.

AD

And now you know why I wanted to stay out of this thread!

Also, I haven't been a "copper" since the early 1970's and that was in Northern Ohio anyway.

I doubt seriously that when my license plate gets run, that a giant sign saying "Ex Cop 40 years ago" shows up on their computer screen!

So, I'll attempt to gracefully exit the discussion at this point.

I have printed out your papers.

AD
 
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mach1chris

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
130
Location
Miami, FL
And now you know why I wanted to stay out of this thread!

Also, I haven't been a "copper" since the early 1970's and that was in Northen Ohio anyway.

I doubt seriously that when my license plate gets run, that a giant sign saying "Ex Cop 40 years ago" shows up on their computer screen!

So, I'll attempt to gracefully exit the discussion at this point.

I have printed out your papers.

AD

Gracefully, no futher comment necessary...
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
The thick brown line strokes itself.... Do you not realize you only solidify the disdain?

The point I wanted to make was that when cops buddy up with fellow cops, the result doesn't apply to the rest of us. Citing your experiences doesn't help us because you get special treatment. You're part of the club.

We're not.

You tried to portray your situation as something the rest of us can expect. It just isn't so. I don't get to say 'Hey man, I was a cop, too.' You get special treatment when you say that, and you know it.

If you want to stay out of the thread because your deceptions will get called out, why not stop with the deceptions instead of pretending that getting called out for them is a bad thing?

If you can't help but bring your deceptions along with you, then you're right, you should stay out. If you can check them at the door, we'll get along a lot better.

Don't pass-off your experiences as something the rest of us can count on. We're not members of your club.

And, yes, LEO's plates do have special recognition when looked up. Even non-LEO State Employees do. mach1chris can confirm this... Or lie about it... Whatever... I've seen it with my own eyes.

If you cannot be honest, we'll always butt heads. Apologists taht play this slight-of-hand game will earn no quarter from me.
 
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