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OC on the Appalachian Trail

thewlbiii

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Virginia
Will someone shed some light on the legality of open carrying while going to, hiking on or coming from the Appalachian Trail in Virginia? Specifically around McAfe's Knob. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
 

Grapeshot

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peter nap

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The Appalachian Trail in VA is entirely with the Shenandoah National Park which is NPS land.

The laws of each state apply within their borders to all NPS, national parks, so OC or CC w/CHP. You can thank VCDL for that.

Note not allowed to carry in any facility/building that regularly houses NPS employees - must be signage to that effect.

http://www.nps.gov/shen/index.htm

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm

This is a good time to mention the good VCDL has done. That change was fought to the end and VCDL continued to push and find a way. The change in the law was carried on a credit card reform bill if I remember right.
 

Grapeshot

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This is a good time to mention the good VCDL has done. That change was fought to the end and VCDL continued to push and find a way. The change in the law was carried on a credit card reform bill if I remember right.

It was the Credit Cardholders’ Bill of Rights Act which was passed in 2009 and went into effect 2010.

VCDL has pushed for parity on all public lands throughout Virginia. As National Park land comprised such a large part of our public lands but did not allow carry, it became a focal point. Working closely with Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Oklahoma) and others in Congress we eventually prevailed. Many other RKBA groups have tried to claim credit for bringing this to fruition, but VCDL was there 1st and pushed the hardest. Viva la VCDL!
 

johnfenter

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Additional problem

The Trail is NPS land; but if you look at the map, in a lot of places, it is surrounded by National Forest Land, which in VA requires a CHP to carry and only allows CC unless hunting (4VAC15-40-60). You have to be careful since only a few feet from the trail you'd be in violation, and this means that in many places you have to access the trail while concealing. If you don't have a CHP, then you have to get onto the trail in an area outside the National Forest lands....
 

peter nap

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The Trail is NPS land; but if you look at the map, in a lot of places, it is surrounded by National Forest Land, which in VA requires a CHP to carry and only allows CC unless hunting (4VAC15-40-60). You have to be careful since only a few feet from the trail you'd be in violation, and this means that in many places you have to access the trail while concealing. If you don't have a CHP, then you have to get onto the trail in an area outside the National Forest lands....

For those of us that grew up in the NF, I'd say don't worry about it....but sine that's a board violation:uhoh:, take a pistol rug and when you enter the NF, unload and put it in the rug. When you leave, load and carry. You're legal then.

It's inconvenient but keeps you in good standing.
 
Last edited:

love4guns

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For those of us that grew up in the NF, I'd say don't worry about it....but sine that's a board violation:uhoh:, take a pistol rug and when you enter the NF, unload and put it in the rug. When you leave, load and carry. You're legal then.

It's inconvenient but keeps you in good standing.

So we CAN O.C. on the AT? Just not the woodland area? Is this correct. I plan on backpacking alot this year so this info is very useful for me
 

peter nap

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So we CAN O.C. on the AT? Just not the woodland area? Is this correct. I plan on backpacking alot this year so this info is very useful for me

Yes, you can OC Legally on the AT that is in the Parks system. I don't know if any part is actually on AF land and you can't legally OC there except during hunting season.
 

KBCraig

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So we CAN O.C. on the AT? Just not the woodland area? Is this correct. I plan on backpacking alot this year so this info is very useful for me

You can legally carry in whatever manner would be legal for the state you're in. That means you're screwed in Maryland and New York, but you can find a way to carry in all the other states.
 

VApatriot

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Just a quick added question here, but can anyone offer an opinion (or better yet fact) regarding the scenic overlook points/peaks along the Appalachian Trail? Are those areas generally considered part of the App Trail or are they part of the surrounding NF land? I'm hiking Big Rocky Row near Glasgow with some friends tomorrow, and I want to make sure I stay legal. http://www.hikingupward.com/GWNF/BigRockyRow/ I obviously would prefer to OC when I can, but I'll CC if and when I must.
 

Grapeshot

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Just a quick added question here, but can anyone offer an opinion (or better yet fact) regarding the scenic overlook points/peaks along the Appalachian Trail? Are those areas generally considered part of the App Trail or are they part of the surrounding NF land? I'm hiking Big Rocky Row near Glasgow with some friends tomorrow, and I want to make sure I stay legal. http://www.hikingupward.com/GWNF/BigRockyRow/ I obviously would prefer to OC when I can, but I'll CC if and when I must.

Recommend a phone call to NPS or local senior ranger as your most practical solution. If you are referring to the scenic overlooks along the Blue Ridge Parkway in VA then those are part of NPS lands.

Otherwise an extremely good GPS and topo map w/mets and bounds might be required. :uhoh:
 

VApatriot

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Recommend a phone call to NPS or local senior ranger as your most practical solution. If you are referring to the scenic overlooks along the Blue Ridge Parkway in VA then those are part of NPS lands.

Otherwise an extremely good GPS and topo map w/mets and bounds might be required. :uhoh:

Thanks for the advice, GS.

Only recently has it clearly come to my attention how convoluted may of the boundaries are for NP, NF, and WMA and how nuanced the different regulations are for each. Given that there are such large sections of Virginia that are encompassed by these lands and their regulation, it sure would be nice to have some consistency in all of them with the rest of the state's carry laws. It just isn't right that you should have to worry about crossing an unmarked line in the woods and going from perfectly legal to in violation.
 

Grapeshot

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Thanks for the advice, GS.

Only recently has it clearly come to my attention how convoluted may of the boundaries are for NP, NF, and WMA and how nuanced the different regulations are for each. Given that there are such large sections of Virginia that are encompassed by these lands and their regulation, it sure would be nice to have some consistency in all of them with the rest of the state's carry laws. It just isn't right that you should have to worry about crossing an unmarked line in the woods and going from perfectly legal to in violation.

It comes back to good people intent on obeying the laws (LAC) are punished when there was no intent to violate tsame.

BGs/criminals will willfully ignore the law(s) - no law has ever stopped a crime. Hear preaching to the choir here.
 

hermannr

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I have a question on this. You say you cannot OC in the NF in VA? but you can CC? To my western mind, this does not compute. That you may be required to have a concealed license, or a hunting license, I might understand, kind of sounds like game law stuff, but if you have a concealed permit, you are required to conceal in a NF in VA???? Who's rules? state? :confused:

Sorry, that just does not compute in my mind...really?
 

VApatriot

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I have a question on this. You say you cannot OC in the NF in VA? but you can CC? To my western mind, this does not compute. That you may be required to have a concealed license, or a hunting license, I might understand, kind of sounds like game law stuff, but if you have a concealed permit, you are required to conceal in a NF in VA???? Who's rules? state? :confused:

Sorry, that just does not compute in my mind...really?

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+reg+4VAC15-40-60

Look at section G. It specifies concealed carry with a CHP.
 

riverrat10k

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As an outdoorsman, this convolution is still one of my pet peeves. There have been strides made, National Parks and State Parks, but we still have the whole National Forest, Wilderness Area, and Wildlife Management Area fiascos. You are right that a lot of it has to do with not wanting illegal hunting on certain lands, so your right to carry is restricted.

Why I will be working for constitutional carry over the next year. Carrying is a RIGHT. If you commit a crime while carrying, your mistake. But don't criminalize the RIGHT because you are on game lands.
 

VApatriot

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I ended up hiking Tinker Cliff today. The hike uses a trail that goes through privately owned land (no NF land) and then joins the AT. I decided to CC through the first trail and then switch to OC on the AT. On the return leg, I ended behind a gentleman who clearly had a holster poking out from under his jacket, so I asked him what he was carrying. We talked a bit about what we carried and some of the ranges in the area. All in all it was a great day with perfect weather and awesome views.
 

hermannr

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The whole thing stinks of "guilty unless proven innocent" and every person with a handgun is a jack lighter and poacher.

I know, we have the unlawful to posses a loaded long gun in a vehicle here to (yes, game regulations) but at least you can have your unlicensed OC pistol for SD anywhere in the wild (and even the city, parks, the state capitol buldings, the county commisioners office, restaurants that serve,,,only over 21 bars are restricted). NP, NF, DNR land, BLM anywhere and eveywhere (except the Indian res, then you have to ask for extra permission from the tribe if off road)
 

Grapeshot

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The whole thing stinks of "guilty unless proven innocent" and every person with a handgun is a jack lighter and poacher.

I know, we have the unlawful to posses a loaded long gun in a vehicle here to (yes, game regulations) but at least you can have your unlicensed OC pistol for SD anywhere in the wild (and even the city, parks, the state capitol buldings, the county commisioners office, restaurants that serve,,,only over 21 bars are restricted). NP, NF, DNR land, BLM anywhere and eveywhere (except the Indian res, then you have to ask for extra permission from the tribe if off road)


"No legal principle of criminal law and procedure has generated more interest and debate than the rule that one is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.1 This maxim has long epitomized the rivalry between the civil law and the common law, as reflected by the traditional dichotomy between the Latin presumption of guilt and the Anglo-American presumption of innocence."


"V. CONCLUSION
Developed in antiquity and formulated in its modern form at the end of the thirteenth century, the principle “innocent until proven guilty” has a dual dimension: a rule of proof casting on the prosecution the burden of proving guilt, it is also a shield that prevents the infliction of punishment prior to conviction. Both the civil law and the common law recognized these two aspects of the presumption of innocence at various times in history. While France recently reinforced the presumption of innocence by elevating it to a personality right, Anglo-American jurisdictions tend to view the doctrine as a mere rule of proof without effect before trial. Denying that the presumption of innocence has any application before trial ultimately legitimizes the unnecessary indignities inflicted upon a growing number of persons accused of crime. A revitalization of this cardinal principle of Anglo-American jurisprudence is much needed at a time when the words “accused” and “convict” are becoming increasingly synonymous. under the Fourth Amendment.”


"An individual charged with a criminal offence faces grave social and personal consequences, including potential loss of physical liberty, subjection to social stigma and ostracism from the community, as well as other social, psychological and economic harms."

http://tinyurl.com/7qnjycq
 
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