Carry Permits are de Facto Gun Registration

Just because it's not a centralized database doesn't mean it can't be compiled into one for the purpose of a gun grab. This is especially true with everything going digital. All that would need to be done is import the digital dealer records into a specialized database designed for such a purpose as mentioned above. Very easy to do.

Jack House said:

All that would need to be done is import the digital dealer records into a specialized database designed for such a purpose as mentioned above. Very easy to do.

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Oh.

well looks like you found what I was referring to. And someone else seems to have made the argument I was going to make...

cscitney87 said:

So No No there's definitely NOT some arbitrary ATF firearms/owners database. This is not a firearms registration in that you can ask if "John Adams Smith Junior" has purchased any firearms lately. It's not record keeping like that. Plainly stated-

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And I guess I wasn't clear enough, because I was not saying it was a database like that. Digital records of sales are bad enough though.

Once on record, always on record. Any of us who have ever had any sort of background check, guess what? You're on record, as is the make, model, and serial number of your firearm.

I don't like it either.

since9 said:

Once on record, always on record. Any of us who have ever had any sort of background check, guess what? You're on record, as is the make, model, and serial number of your firearm.

I don't like it either.

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I just don't see this happening. I can't grasp it as truth unless you provide sources. Official sources, like the websites and links to the FBI/ATF/NICS that I provided would be needed to counter my argument.

Fact is, there's just no database nationwide. There's no outlet- no searchable list- no computer system to check- no phone calls to make. For any U.S. Government agency to keep the background check data (name/date/time/serial #) for more than 24 hours would be a federal offense. And in our State of Colorado, a felony for any local or state agency to do the same.

Truly once a record- gone after 24 hours.

Your firearms dealer of course keeps a receipt of all transactions- that's just good business practice. The ATF requires FFL dealers to maintain a bound book of transactions which is not entered into a database or list. Each bound book is private and privately owned/held by the FFL. When going out of business- there is a requirement to relinquish your bound book to the ATF. They are not entering this information into a database or list or any Name/Date/Serial # registration.

cscitney87 said:

Your firearms dealer of course keeps a receipt of all transactions- that's just good business practice. The ATF requires FFL dealers to maintain a bound book of transactions which is not entered into a database or list. Each bound book is private and privately owned/held by the FFL. When going out of business- there is a requirement to relinquish your bound book to the ATF. They are not entering this information into a database or list or any Name/Date/Serial # registration.

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What do you think this information is? an entry that says "firearm sold on ##/##/####" and that's it? and if its electronic do you think each record is kept in a separate file and different format? And its obvious that ATF has this info in a highly useable form since its what they use to track firearms. If the firearms can be tracked in any capacity then the firearm can be tracked to the last person to have it that was entered in the list. The only thing keeping it from being a full registry is the fact that no private sales are entered, meaning there are large holes for at least some serial numbers.

SlowPoke said:

Hi Folks,

I've thought about this for a while. It occurs to me that any type of "permission" for shall-issue or concealed carry is really gun registration. The guns aren't really registered, but if the owners are registered then authorities can easily round up all owners/guns if they desired. I think this is why the anti-gun folks have been quiet. They know that we are all falling into a trap. I don't trust the Liberal/Democrats, nor the Neo-con/Republicans on this. The NRA has fallen into the Neo-con camp and has been duped too. Cheers....SlowPoke

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IMO the long standing fear that a government is going to round up guns/owners is unfounded. Look at the simple math. There are not enough police/military in this country to do the job.

The president does not have the power to do it through executive order or it would have been done by some gun hating president.
No way in hell it would get passed by Congress cause they like their jobs

If the president signed an executive order or Congress passed and the president signed a law making gun illegal and that the were to be rounded up, every federal courthouse in the land would explode from all the lawyers rushing down there to file requests for an injunction and this would end up in the US Supreme Court.

So lets just ignore that little part and lets say that gun are now illegal and the police have to go round them up. In My state there about 159,792 permits issued. The police are not going to send 1 officer out to pick up the gun because what if the gun owner resists? and you know some will. So for officer safety you will have to send a team. Lets say a 4 man team. Now you have to hit everyone at the same time because if word gets out that the police are confiscating guns they will just disappear. So in my state alone you will need about 639,168 police to confiscate the guns.

A while back I heard some stat of about 280 million guns in the US. Now it is very common to have more than one gun, so lets be nice and say that there are 30 million individual gun owners. Using my very simple example of 4 cops per gun pickup they would need 120 million police/Military.

And lets not even mention the fact that all communications would have to be turned off, no TV, no cell, landlines, CB radio, Internet, HAM radio, AM/FM.

So IMO while good conspiracy fodder in practical application is extremely unlikely. But then again I could be from the government trying to spread disinformation

Cheers

I guess Katrina is just a myth and the Brits still have their guns.

records..

a trusted washington state forum member was detained in the back of a cop car about a year ago.
they had forcefully removed his wallet from his pocket, so now they had his ID!
as he watched from the back seat, they ran his ID in the LIEN system!
he tells us that,,, every gun i have ever bought thru an FFL, including rifles and shot guns,
scrolled down the screen!!!!

nobody can convince me that once the state gets hold of a piece of information, about anybody or thing,
they would ever delete it,,,, unless they are found to have it unlawfully,, then they will claim, it was inadvertent!!!

if your numbers get RUN by a cop, its in a system.
if an FFL calls NICS to clear YOU and a gun serial no., its in a system.
if you get a permit to purchase, its in a system.
if you have a CPL you are in a system.

Phoenix David, you've never heard about any instance where the feds have lied to us? If it's written down as the "law," then they have to follow it?

And you are visiting from which planet again?

Jack House said:

I guess Katrina is just a myth and the Brits still have their guns.

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I was speaking to the OP's comment about " if the owners are registered then authorities can easily round up all owners/guns if they desired." It would not be easy and after Katrina people will fight back.

As far as the Brits, in England the rights are granted to government and then they decide what rights the subjects have, not the same as here.

The US Government could more easy have a de facto gun ban by regulating to death ammunition and components.

MamaLiberty said:

Phoenix David, you've never heard about any instance where the feds have lied to us? If it's written down as the "law," then they have to follow it?

And you are visiting from which planet again?

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The Government lie to the people?? Well i'd be shocked and I am sure my heart would a flutter.

Again I was speaking to the OP's premise that it would be easy for the Government to round up guns.

Phoenix David said:

The Government lie to the people?? Well i'd be shocked and I am sure my heart would a flutter.

Again I was speaking to the OP's premise that it would be easy for the Government to round up guns.

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Well, all this "registration" would certainly make it a lot easier for them to TRY IT.
The problem isn't really a matter of the success of any general roundup... it's the fact that these registration scams are regularly used to target and harass/disarm individuals in the here and now.

And, quite aside from that, the only "permit" I need to exercise my right to self defense - or buy the tools necessary to carry that out - is the fact that I'm a human being... whether my former mother in law agrees with that or not.

MamaLiberty said:

Well, all this "registration" would certainly make it a lot easier for them to TRY IT.
The problem isn't really a matter of the success of any general roundup... it's the fact that these registration scams are regularly used to target and harass/disarm individuals in the here and now.

And, quite aside from that, the only "permit" I need to exercise my right to self defense - or buy the tools necessary to carry that out - is the fact that I'm a human being... whether my former mother in law agrees with that or not.

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That's how a lot of other places did it. "Please just register we will never use it as a roundup tool"

However IMO America is a lot different and while we love our country we are wary and suspicious of big Government just like the Founding Fathers.

I don't think they need to monitor all the gun owners. If they have some, it will be enough. If it comes down to a gun grab, they can fairly well focus their attention on a few to gain compliance from the rest. When this team shows up three doors down from your house:



And you witness the 14 year old son shot in the back, the dog killed and the rest of the family beaten and dragged from their home and taken away, I suspect many will come forth with their guns. They don't need everybody's info to gain compliance. They're working on the process as we speak. They sector out a neighborhood, do a check on permits and purchases, cut a few out of the herd, make examples of them, and they have neighborhood compliance. Then they can go in and weed out the dissidents. They don't need all the information. Just enough information. Neighbors will rat out neighbors when they understand that help, aid and commodity distribution will not continue until all weapons are out of the neighborhood for the safety of the people delivering the aid. It's all in the presentation.

Fuller Malarkey said:

I don't think they need to monitor all the gun owners. If they have some, it will be enough. If it comes down to a gun grab, they can fairly well focus their attention on a few to gain compliance from the rest. When this team shows up three doors down from your house:

And you witness the 14 year old son shot in the back, the dog killed and the rest of the family beaten and dragged from their home and taken away, I suspect many will come forth with their guns. They don't need everybody's info to gain compliance. They're working on the process as we speak. They sector out a neighborhood, do a check on permits and purchases, cut a few out of the herd, make examples of them, and they have neighborhood compliance. Then they can go in and weed out the dissidents. They don't need all the information. Just enough information. Neighbors will rat out neighbors when they understand that help, aid and commodity distribution will not continue until all weapons are out of the neighborhood for the safety of the people delivering the aid. It's all in the presentation.

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If things went like that and people were that despicable then we probably don't deserve liberty for we would have forsaken it for security. I'll stick with Franklin and Patrick Henry.

It's sad no matter how many times I post facts, links, and real hard evidence- people still want to claim

"You are in the system..." I guess that's just the conspiracy theorist in all of us.

Post a link or real evidence to counter my source. My source, from NICS and FBI, explains that after 24 hours- all NICS data of approved transactions is destroyed. The ATF gets the bound book when a FFL closes business.

Any other brain busters? Or wait wait.. the next post will be "Oh but you're in the system..."

Daylen said:

What do you think this information is? an entry that says "firearm sold on ##/##/####" and that's it? and if its electronic do you think each record is kept in a separate file and different format? And its obvious that ATF has this info in a highly useable form since its what they use to track firearms. If the firearms can be tracked in any capacity then the firearm can be tracked to the last person to have it that was entered in the list. The only thing keeping it from being a full registry is the fact that no private sales are entered, meaning there are large holes for at least some serial numbers.

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I'm sorry, but again, WHAT LIST? Please don't just say "The ATF's list.." or "the list" or whatever. Actually post some real- usable, verifiable, sourced information or just stop with all the "the list" bull crap.

No facts no sources just hear-say. "they must have a list" right? Give me a break.

Well there is the NO CALL list and the NO FLY list. And they are both incredibly accurate.

Oh yeah and the Girl Scout cookie list, my favorite.