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A friends close encounter

WalkingWolf

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
Firearms Iinstuctor said:
I have had DAs ask for my advise on laws and regulations.That I enforced on a daly basics and that they didn't have any idea of untill someone plead not quilty.

Many times I would sit down with them open the statue books up and explain the law to them. Show them court cases and AG opions that were relevant to the case.

Unless an attorney works with in a specic area some lay person can have more knowledge and experience then the attorney that does not work with in that area.

As with any training lic or degree doesn't make one all knowing.

I firmly belive a man who has himself for an attorney as a fool for a lawyer.
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DA's asking for advice from LE is not unusual. BUT implying that a person should pay a NON lawyer for legal advice is stupid. A CC class is just that, not a basic law class, or criminal justice class, and never should replace competent legal counsel. The very suggestion of a CC instructor accepting money for legal advice IMO is a attempt at practicing law without a license, and highly illegal. If he wants to offer his advice for free as any other citizen might that is another story. But the OP does not need to take a class for that.
 
Interceptor_Knight

Interceptor_Knight

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Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
WalkingWolf said:
..The very suggestion of a CC instructor accepting money for legal advice IMO is a attempt at practicing law without a license, and highly illegal....
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Your inference that CCW classes should not include a discussion of applicable State and Federal "laws" is pure ignorant nonsense and, frankly, you are talking out of your rectum. Discussion of these things is actually curriculum required by States which set a curriculum. In other words, the State Law Enforcement Agencies which are typically overseen by the State Attorney Generals are directing instructors to discuss the laws. This is not the same as "practicing law". :dude:
 
WalkingWolf

WalkingWolf

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Interceptor_Knight said:
Your inference that CCW classes should not include a discussion of applicable State and Federal "laws" is pure ignorant nonsense and, frankly, you are talking out of your rectum. Discussion of these things is actually curriculum required by States which set a curriculum. In other words, the State Law Enforcement Agencies which are typically overseen by the State Attorney Generals are directing instructors to discuss the laws. This is not the same as "practicing law". :dude:
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How could you be a instructor of toilet repair let alone CCW classes. Your reading comprehension is horrible. The OP NEVER mentioned getting a CCW, OP related a incident and asked for comments. YOUR comment was he should take a CC class to get legal advice, I assume yours, to get information NOT having to do with CCW. Your contention is he should pay YOU to get legal advice. MY contention is he get legal advice from a attorney, especially if he is going to pay for it. Discussion of laws as part of a CC class IS NOT ethical when the person does not want a CCW. You have absolutely no business trying to procure money for legal advice that should only be given by a lawyer. It never ceases to amaze me the CC instructors that actually know zip about the law, and continue to lead people down the wrong path with lies and their wrong opinions. Again if you are NOT a attorney you are not qualified to take money for legal advice outside the realm of concealed carry. Otherwise you are committing a felony, and against board rules to suggest breaking laws.

Stop representing yourself as a attorney unless you are licensed to do so!
 
sharkey

sharkey

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Arizona
I'm still reading so I don't know if this was addressed but;

It would be totally assinine to shoot at someone in your driveway acting suspicious. Even here in Arizona where it's hard to get a concivtion in self defense shootings I am confident you would be found guilty of murder in the above scenario.

I don't care if your friend was 3'2" and scared out of his wits. His fear or the shoot would not be "reasonable".

ETA. Re: the hypothetical scenario of shots being fired at him, castle doctrine is irrelevant, normal self defense justifications arise.

He would be liable for any missed shots though.


cowboyridn said:
SNIP

Hiding the firearm behind his back my friend yelled at the teenager as he came up the driveway “can I help you” and as he yelled the teenager turned around and ran back to the vehicle, got in and took off. As the vehicle drove off my friend ran to the end of the driveway and again yelled “can I help you” and as they drive by they yelled were looking for an address which I seriously doubt what there intentions, they were no doubt casing the place.


He did not shoot at the teenager because the teenager was unarmed and no threat because my friend is 6' 5” and built and wasn't threatened by the scroungy teenager, he was concerned about his wife and daughter if he didn't come home early that day.


We discussed what would have happened if he had shot the intruder in the driveway had he been armed and if the castle doctrine covers all the property not just inside the house. We discussed what you would say to the police and my advice was to request an attorney be present during any and all questioning and if you were not going to cooperate be prepared to be detained and arrested.


We also discussed if the occupants of the car would have begun shooting from the car at my friend and he returned fire while the vehicle was on the street what would cover his actions which we are not quite sure if it would be the castle doctrine or any of the other Wisconsin Statutes listed.


I wonder how I would have reacted, how would you have handled this situation?


I sent him a copy of the below URL

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/Hayes-SDLaw.pdf
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WalkingWolf

WalkingWolf

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sharkey said:
I'm still reading so I don't know if this was addressed but;

It would be totally assinine to shoot at someone in your driveway acting suspicious. Even here in Arizona where it's hard to get a concivtion in self defense shootings I am confident you would be found guilty of murder in the above scenario.

I don't care if your friend was 3'2" and scared out of his wits. His fear or the shoot would not be "reasonable".

ETA. Re: the hypothetical scenario of shots being fired at him, castle doctrine is irrelevant, normal self defense justifications arise.

He would be liable for any missed shots though.
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Agree...
 
sharkey

sharkey

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Arizona
Law abider said:
The crux of the issue is that cowboy is addressing a particular scenario. Though we/I need to know the laws by heart, the prosecution, had the gun been used, would try to demolish the "I was in fear of my life"' in this scenario. The dude didn't have a gun and was running away. Can't use castle doctrine or stand your ground. You can shout "fire" in a theater if there is a fire, and not because you thought there was going to be one. Interceptor is right, in my humble opinion: forced entry in an open driveway. MKE is right if the house was surrounded by walls and the entrance had a locked gate which was broken thru and the intruder walked in thru an open door. But in WI, 99% of the driveways are open at least where I live. Now in Milwaukee or Madison, there may be gated homes. Now if the dude had a gun and was walking to the garage and was going to point it and kept walking, yes you could say " I was in fear of my life." But decided he was going to point and then decided to turn and run when he saw my gun, I wouldn't shoot and call 911.
From what I understand every scenario will require to be scrutinized differently by the prosecution and applicable statutes applied.

I know one thing Gabe Gutenberger and his late wife told us, first always try to calm down the situation or find a way out ( physically) and call 911. Do all you can to avoid shooting. Only use the gun if your life or someone elses is ACTUALLY in danger of death or great bodily harm and not because you thought so. I know I know leos can get away with it bec they "thought so" sometimes.
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I disagree with one part of what you've said. If someone starts to point a gun at me they're done unless they drop it. If I see you running away I can only assume you're going for cover.
 
Interceptor_Knight

Interceptor_Knight

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sharkey said:
I disagree with one part of what you've said. If someone starts to point a gun at me they're done unless they drop it. If I see you running away I can only assume you're going for cover.
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Going for cover is not an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm..... This thread is in regards to Wisconsin self defense privilege and the use of deadly force, not Arizona.
 
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Interceptor_Knight

Interceptor_Knight

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WalkingWolf said:
Stop representing yourself as a attorney unless you are licensed to do so!
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You are being absolutely ridiculous. I stand by my original recommendation to the OP. A quality Wisconsin Concealed Carry class will give you a general overview of the State and Federal Laws as they pertain to Acquiring a WI CC License, Concealed Carry, self defense and use of deadly force in Wisconsin. Any responsible instructor recommends further training and for the students to consult with an attorney for in depth legal advice. If the State Attorney General doesn't believe that CCW Instructors are practicing law illegally by discussing applicable Statutes, you Sir are certainly being ridiculous by suggesting so.
There are free classes available so your money tirade is not applicable here.
 
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HandyHamlet

HandyHamlet

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Terra, Sol
WalkingWolf said:
The OP NEVER asked for training! The OP did ask for legal advice,...
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Interceptor_Knight said:
You are being absolutely ridiculous.
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Sweet, both right and both wrong at the same time! It's like getting a tie in Tekken Team Deathmatch. Or witnessing a Unicorn shooting rainbows out it's @ss.

Asking for legal advise on the interwebs... Might as well ask for instructions on how to perform brain surgery on yourself. We have some very reputable instructors here. And WalkingWolf, Interceptor_Knight is simply being modest today. Stick around long enough and you will hear all about the team of lawyers he keeps on retainer. Now, I know you think I'm kidding, but I assure you I'm not. IK needs this legal dream team because he always takes the opposing side in any debate on vague and or poorly written laws. It's what he does and why we love him.

Happy Wed!

:banana:
 
WalkingWolf

WalkingWolf

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Interceptor_Knight said:
You are being absolutely ridiculous. I stand by my original recommendation to the OP. A quality Wisconsin Concealed Carry class will give you a general overview of the State and Federal Laws as they pertain to Acquiring a WI CC License, Concealed Carry, self defense and use of deadly force in Wisconsin. Any responsible instructor recommends further training and for the students to consult with an attorney for in depth legal advice. If the State Attorney General doesn't believe that CCW Instructors are practicing law illegally by discussing applicable Statutes, you Sir are certainly being ridiculous by suggesting so.
There are free classes available so your money tirade is not applicable here.
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So you are going to give the OP a class for free, including paying for his ammo?

Again anybody seeking legal advice from someone who is not a attorney is a idiot. Anybody offering legal advice for money without a law license is a crook. Don't take advice from crooks. Don't even take a class from a crook, you will regret it.
 
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Interceptor_Knight

Interceptor_Knight

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WalkingWolf said:
So you are going to give the OP a class for free, including paying for his ammo?
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I have provided hundreds of hours of documented training volunteering my time to do so. I have also provided thousands of rounds to others over the years for training who did not have ammo of their own. You make too many assumptions from a distance with no evidence to support your baseless accusations. You resort to insults instead of rational discussion. I am convinced that your only purpose in this thread is to antagonize and incite.
 
WalkingWolf

WalkingWolf

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Interceptor_Knight said:
I have provided hundreds of hours of documented training volunteering my time to do so. I have also provided thousands of rounds to others over the years for training who did not have ammo of their own. You make too many assumptions from a distance with no evidence to support your baseless accusations. You resort to insults instead of rational discussion. I am convinced that your only purpose in this thread is to antagonize and incite.
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If you don't mind I trust a real, actual, true, licensed attorney as opposed to some wannabe attorney.
 
WalkingWolf

WalkingWolf

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NoTolerance said:
Why does he need ammo? You've mentioned that multiple times now.
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Because somebody looking for some free legal advice, should not have to pay for ammo to get that advice from a CC instructor. If it is going to be free advice it should be completely free. Now IMO he would be a fool to seek advice from a CC instructor and pay for it, when we have a attorney for a member he could PM, actually I believe there are several attorneys on the site including the administrator. If he was looking for a CC class then I would be less harsh, but clearly he was not. The plug for the class for the answer to legal questions was quite stupid to say the least.
 
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